Bristol Parkway - Cardiff 'via Newport' fares higher than 'any permitted'

[Dai Corner]

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I noticed that there are two sets of fares between Bristol Parkway (BPW) and Cardiff Central (CDF), both set by GWR, and that the via Newport ones are higher than Any Permitted. For those not familiar with the area, it's impossible* to make the journey without going through Newport and all trains stop there.

Eg SDR via Newport £19.50 , Any Permitted £15.90

Anyone care to attempt an explanation?

* well, you'd have to via Shrewsbury!

 

[_toommm_]

It’s the same Ashton and Stalybridge to Sheffield - Any Permitted is £20.10 for the CDR then £23.20 for the Via Manchester CDR, and again different fare setters. To avoid Sheffield, you’d either have to change at Guide Bridge and Marple, or use the once a week Stalybridge to Stockport via Denton.

One fare should be suppressed I believe in both our cases (obviously the more expensive, less flexible one).

 

[Ianno87]

It’s the same Ashton and Stalybridge to Sheffield - Any Permitted is £20.10 for the CDR then £23.20 for the Via Manchester CDR, and again different fare setters. To avoid Sheffield, you’d either have to change at Guide Bridge and Marple, or use the once a week Stalybridge to Stockport via Denton.

One fare should be suppressed I believe in both our cases (obviously the more expensive, less flexible one).

Would Stalybridge-Huddersfield-Penistone-Barnsley-Sheffield not be valid in that example?

 

[_toommm_]

Would Stalybridge-Huddersfield-Penistone-Barnsley-Sheffield not be valid in that example?

Off the top of my head, that seems like quite a long route - I’m not sure it would be valid.

 

[SickyNicky]

* well, you'd have to via Shrewsbury!

Or Bristol -> Worcester -> Hereford -> Craven Arms -> Swansea - > Cardiff. Not a Permitted route, sadly.

I thought the cheaper ticket might be partially explained by the off-peak restrictions, but in the fact it actually has more relaxed time restrictions.

 

[34006]

How is a permitted route ticket between BPW and CDF different from a direct route ticket ? Are there time restrictions ? can both tickets travel through Newport ?

 

[father_jack]

That's a glitch, I think if you issued a ticket it would come out with "VIA.NEWPORT" on it, the dot having something to do with the glitch. It's all to with RDG trying to get rid of the "any permitted" routing on all tickets being a bit of a mess.

 

[Dai Corner]

OK, here's the answer.

The via Newport fares are also valid from the area bounded by Yate, Keynsham, Parson Street and Pilning.

I think that's a poor way of describing them though.

http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=BPW&dest=CDF and click Expert Mode

 

[Mcr Warrior]

OK, here's the answer.

The via Newport fares are also valid from the area bounded by Yate, Keynsham, Parson Street and Pilning.

I think that's a poor way of describing them though.

http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=BPW&dest=CDF and click Expert Mode

Somewhat confused.

How exactly is that an explanation?

Have to say that having both Route "Any Permitted" tickets (which appear to only be valid via Newport) and separate, more expensive, Route "via Newport" tickets, which don't provide any additional benefit, makes the latter seem a little like a scam.

 

[Dai Corner]

Somewhat confused.

How exactly is that an explanation?

Have to say that having both Route "Any Permitted" tickets (which appear to only be valid via Newport) and separate, more expensive, Route "via Newport" tickets, which don't provide any additional benefit, makes the latter seem a little like a scam.

The cheaper fare is only valid to/from BPW. The more expensive is also valid to Yate, Keynsham and Parson Street which are longer journeys. Pilning is, er, complicated! One would hope the ticket office st BPW would offer the cheapest fare for the journey.

 

[1955LR]

Same on Heart of Wales Line BUK to LLE , Anytime day single is £15.60 any permitted and £19.20 Valid only for travel via (changing trains or passing through) Llandovery.
I understand there is an easement that allows that any permitted to be valid via Newport & Swansea

 

[alistairlees]

The cheaper fare is only valid to/from BPW. The more expensive is also valid to Yate, Keynsham and Parson Street which are longer journeys. Pilning is, er, complicated! One would hope the ticket office st BPW would offer the cheapest fare for the journey.

I don't think you mean "valid" here; you mean "the same as", I expect? What you are describing are fare clusters, and it is indeed the use of a broad fare cluster for a relatively short journey that causes the problem.

 

[30907]

Same on Heart of Wales Line BUK to LLE , Anytime day single is £15.60 any permitted and £19.20 Valid only for travel via (changing trains or passing through) Llandovery.
I understand there is an easement that allows that any permitted to be valid via Newport & Swansea

Do you mean Bucknell to Llanelli (I'm guessing, but I know the line)?

 

[Dai Corner]

I don't think you mean "valid" here; you mean "the same as", I expect? What you are describing are fare clusters, and it is indeed the use of a broad fare cluster for a relatively short journey that causes the problem.

Yes that's what I meant. I didn't put it very well.

 

[1955LR]

Yes, Bucknell to Llanelli

 

[SickyNicky]

I can't find an easement to allow that via the Marches line (Newport). If there was, it'd be a big loophole.

 

[1955LR]

This was what I was told on this forum last year when I raised it and I believe Llanelli is in the same cluster as Swansea, but I may have misunderstood.
Easement 700079 said:
Customers travelling from Swansea to Broome, Hopton Heath, Bucknell, Knighton, Knucklas and Llangynllo in possession of tickets routed 'Any Permitted' may travel via Craven Arms. This easement applies in both directions.

 

[Watershed]

This was what I was told on this forum last year when I raised it and I believe Llanelli is in the same cluster as Swansea, but I may have misunderstood.
Easement 700079 said:
Customers travelling from Swansea to Broome, Hopton Heath, Bucknell, Knighton, Knucklas and Llangynllo in possession of tickets routed 'Any Permitted' may travel via Craven Arms. This easement applies in both directions.

You're not travelling from Swansea if you have a ticket from Llanelli though. And the cheap tickets from Swansea are restricted to via Llandovery, so there's no loophole here.

 

[kieron]

I don't think you mean "valid" here; you mean "the same as", I expect? What you are describing are fare clusters, and it is indeed the use of a broad fare cluster for a relatively short journey that causes the problem.

As father_jack says, the problem was caused by the industry's ongoing efforts to remove "any permitted" tickets. The fare from "Bristol cluster" to Cardiff Central (Q066-Q496) had an any permitted route until fairly recently, possibly September. The fare from Bristol Parkway to Cardiff Central (3230-3899) was also "any permitted" and overrode it because that's how fares work.

Now the "Bristol cluster" fare is "via Newport", and the Bristol Parkway one "any permitted", it doesn't override it, and both tickets are available to buy. I would hope that retail systems would strongly promote the cheaper fare, but people may end up with the wrong ticket anyway.

For the other stations in the cluster:

Patchway-Cardiff Central has a "via Newport" route, so it does override the "cluster" version.
Filton Abbey Wood-Cardiff Central is the same.
Pilning-Cardiff Central has an 01000 route, so both versions of the fare are available.
None of the other stations have a separate set of fares to Cardiff Central.

In an ideal world, the people who make changes like this would have a tool which let them know if a change of route code meant that a flow had stopped overriding another one (or, indeed, if it had started overriding something) before it went into use. It doesn't appear that anyone uses something like this, though.