Bury-Bolton-Rochdale line

[Dawg]

I remember reading that before closure, this line was considered suitable for electrification.

If so, what happened?

If all is lost - I'm not sure if the trackbed is still intact along the route, but why was Burnden viaduct left intact when the A666 was built?

It'd be great to get the trams linked up anyhow all the way across to Bolton from Bury.

Just curious.

 

[snowball]

I remember reading that before closure, this line was considered suitable for electrification.

I'd never heard that, but I do know that the abandoned Picc-Vicc tunnel scheme would have included conversion to 25kV AC overhead of both the Manchester-Bury line that is now part of Metrolink, and the now lifted branch from Radcliffe on that line to Bolton.

 

[table38]

Indeed Andrew Coward's comprehensive book The Decline of British Railways in Bury & Rossendale says that Bradley Fold to Bolton was considered as part of Picc-Vic (using the old chord from Radcliffe) and was reported in the Bolton Evening News, but there was opposition to the reopening from local residents.

Bury Knowsley Street to Heywood was still in place (used for coal) and was acquired by the East Lancs Railway with the cooperation of Bury and Rochdale councils as an alternative main-line connection once the trams came to Bury and the ELR lost it's former main-line connection.

(Well, the connection is still there, and was used during the relaying of the track from Manchester to Bury, but I doubt they could do stock moves down the Metrolink to Victoria )

 

[edwin_m]

There's a housing estate on the line at Bradley Fold and scrolling left from the link below, the last part to join the surviving line at Bolton also seems to be blocked.

http://binged.it/WGdNyL

 

[Bevan Price]

Burnden viaduct now demolished. Buildings on alignment on east side of A666. As already mentioned, housing on trackbed at Bradley Fold. Some building on tracbed at site of Radcliffe Black Lane. Line from Radcliffe Central to Bradley Fold Junction started on an embankment which is now demolished. Least expensive means of partial reopening would possibly be a Metrolink line with some (partly rerouted) street running in Radcliffe, Bradley Fold & Bolton areas to replace lost trackbed . Reinstatement of former northbound connection onto Manchester - Bury line would enable a Bolton - Bury Metrolink service.

Chances of this happening ? Very low in the next 20-30 years - another misguided busway would be more likely.

 

[snowball]

Indeed Andrew Coward's comprehensive book The Decline of British Railways in Bury & Rossendale says that Bradley Fold to Bolton was considered as part of Picc-Vic (using the old chord from Radcliffe) and was reported in the Bolton Evening News, but there was opposition to the reopening from local residents.

I think it was more than considered. All the publicity materials showed it as an integral part of the scheme. I still have a leaflet from the time. Lots of local trains approaching from Stockport and Styal would have entered the tunnel. There had to be places for them to go at the other end. Some would have gone to Bury, some to Bolton and some would have terminated at Victoria.

 

[Dawg]

Bevan - burnden viaduct is still in situ across the A666. I passed under it last week! I just thought it odd that it was left in one piece considering how quickly the Eccles - Tyldesley line was swept away for the M602....


I'd imagine that opposition from local residents wasn't the thing that stopped it? Shame about the housing estate too - always seems the way...

 

[jp4712]

Picc-Vic diagram below. I took a photo of the bridge from Radcliffe Central over Spring Lane in 1985: its removal made the reinstatement of the Radcliffe - Bolton link very problematic.

Paul

SELNEC PIcc-Vic diagram from about 1974 by jp4712, on Flickr

Bridge on former Radcliffe - Bolton line, Radcliffe Central station, January 1985 by jp4712, on Flickr

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'd imagine that opposition from local residents wasn't the thing that stopped it? Shame about the housing estate too - always seems the way...

A bit heartless.......How long had that former railway land been left unused ?...What have you got against people hoping to live in a house of their own.

 

[Dawg]

A bit heartless.......How long had that former railway land been left unused ?...What have you got against people hoping to live in a house of their own.

??

Nothing - I just have a problem with the blinkered fools in charge selling railway land off quickly in areas of high levels of road congestion meaning that no viable alternative option is ever going to be on the table again. Capiche?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

??

Nothing - I just have a problem with the blinkered fools in charge selling railway land off quickly in areas of high levels of road congestion meaning that no viable alternative option is ever going to be on the table again. Capiche?

At the age of 69, I still have enough command of my mental faculties and indeed do not appreciate the final word used in your answer above, which the meaning of which would appear to cast doubts on my ability to fully comprehend the point that you were making.

Would you also have the same reservation if a school was built on such land that had not seen any other usage for very many years or would you prefer any such lands to be held in perpetuity ? Perhaps you would also wish to see the original turnpikes being returned to the same conditions they were when they were built to aid transportation.

 

[Moonshot]

??

Nothing - I just have a problem with the blinkered fools in charge selling railway land off quickly in areas of high levels of road congestion meaning that no viable alternative option is ever going to be on the table again. Capiche?

I can assure you son that Network Rail has a very exhaustive process to go through before selling off railway land . I know that to be true because I happen to work for them before joining Northern.

 

[WatcherZero]

Though British Rail were enthusiastic at land disposal often giving it away free to Local Councils so they didnt have to deal with the upkeep.

 

[21C101]

I can assure you son that Network Rail has a very exhaustive process to go through before selling off railway land . I know that to be true because I happen to work for them before joining Northern.

I think that is a case of the stable door being firmly bolted shut after someone discovered most of the horses were gone.

AIUI British Rail used to sell off trackbed as fast as possible.

 

[radamfi]

In north west England there is no need to sell off potentially worthwhile transport corridors for housing. The is plenty of undeveloped brownfield land. My old street was demolished over 20 years ago and still is wasteland. There are so many derelict mills and factories.

 

[21C101]

There's a housing estate on the line at Bradley Fold and scrolling left from the link below, the last part to join the surviving line at Bolton also seems to be blocked.

http://binged.it/WGdNyL

There was a housing estate built on the route of Tramlink near Coombe road. They simply compulsory purchased and demolished. Indeed it was said that the occupants of one of the newly built blocks of flats got their compulsory purchase letter the day they moved in!

Some 1930s houses in Addiscombe Road also went to provide the exit from the old Woodside - Selsdon line to get to East Croydon.

As I see it the logical thing for do would be to build a triangle junction at Radcliffe, compulsory purchase the buildings in the way at Bradley Fold, run along the old trackbed to the A666 where it would cross the viaduct then turn sharp right to run alongside the A666 to the A579. Then alongside/street run on the A579 to the station and then street run along Blackhorse Street and Deansgate.

Stations at

Black Lane,
Bradley Fold,
Springfield,
Trinity Street (East Croydon style on bridge by Bolton Station entrance),
Blackhorse Street (outside bus station),
Deansgate (near Market Hall)
Possibly continue on stree to north west suburbs (eg along B6226)

One advantage over the old Picc Vic is that it would have intermediate stations so get more local support (there were no stops between Radcliffe and Bolton on Pic Vic so the locals got all the pain with no gain).

Also unlike Pic Vic Metrolink can penetrate the town centre.


However I do think a higher priority ought to be an extension from the town centre to Salford Crescent then along the Wigan via Atherton line ( tram train), turn onto the disused railway to Ellenbrook then onto the busway east of Tyldesley and then conversion of the busway to Leigh:

So
Picc,
Picc gardens,
Along Mosley street,
change junction with second city crossing to triangle north of St Peters square and stop in Princess St
Along A34 with Stop at Deansgate
Along A6 with stops at Chapel Street, University/Salford Crescent
Pendleton (reopened)
Swinton
Moorside
Walkden
Ellenbrook
Tyldesley
Leigh

 

[Moonshot]

There was a housing estate built on the route of Tramlink near Coombe road. They simply compulsory purchased and demolished. Indeed it was said that the occupants of one of the newly built blocks of flats got their compulsory purchase letter the day they moved in!

Some 1930s houses in Addiscombe Road also went to provide the exit from the old Woodside - Selsdon line to get to East Croydon.

As I see it the logical thing for do would be to build a triangle junction at Radcliffe, compulsory purchase the buildings in the way at Bradley Fold, run along the old trackbed to the A666 where it would cross the viaduct then turn sharp right to run alongside the A666 to the A579. Then alongside/street run on the A579 to the station and then street run along Blackhorse Street and Deansgate.

Stations at

Black Lane,
Bradley Fold,
Springfield,
Trinity Street (East Croydon style on bridge by Bolton Station entrance),
Blackhorse Street (outside bus station),
Deansgate (near Market Hall)
Possibly continue on stree to north west suburbs (eg along B6226)

One advantage over the old Picc Vic is that it would have intermediate stations so get more local support (there were no stops between Radcliffe and Bolton on Pic Vic so the locals got all the pain with no gain).

Also unlike Pic Vic Metrolink can penetrate the town centre.


However I do think a higher priority ought to be an extension from the town centre to Salford Crescent then along the Wigan via Atherton line ( tram train), turn onto the disused railway to Ellenbrook then onto the busway east of Tyldesley and then conversion of the busway to Leigh:

So
Picc,
Picc gardens,
Along Mosley street,
change junction with second city crossing to triangle north of St Peters square and stop in Princess St
Along A34 with Stop at Deansgate
Along A6 with stops at Chapel Street, University/Salford Crescent
Pendleton (reopened)
Swinton
Moorside
Walkden
Ellenbrook
Tyldesley
Leigh

This is not a bad idea, though always subject to funding of course. I m not from the area so have no historical roots etc, but I do travel through it a lot. There are some significant sized areas of brownfield sites inbetween Salford Crescent and Walkden.

 

[Dawg]

In north west England there is no need to sell off potentially worthwhile transport corridors for housing. The is plenty of undeveloped brownfield land. My old street was demolished over 20 years ago and still is wasteland. There are so many derelict mills and factories.

Precisely what I was going to say...

 

[HSTEd]

So what services would you have cut to pay for the upkeep of railway land that had no near/mid-term railway use?

People always demand things but never stop to think how it would be paid for.

 

[edwin_m]

There was a housing estate built on the route of Tramlink near Coombe road. They simply compulsory purchased and demolished. Indeed it was said that the occupants of one of the newly built blocks of flats got their compulsory purchase letter the day they moved in!

Some 1930s houses in Addiscombe Road also went to provide the exit from the old Woodside - Selsdon line to get to East Croydon.

True, it's a question of how much political will there is to do something. Possibly new houses are easier to re-possess because the occupants can't have been claiming to have been there for umpteen years. And I think the number of houses demolished at both Croydon site are far fewer than they would be at Bradley Fold.

However I do think a higher priority ought to be an extension from the town centre to Salford Crescent then along the Wigan via Atherton line ( tram train), turn onto the disused railway to Ellenbrook then onto the busway east of Tyldesley and then conversion of the busway to Leigh:

So
Picc,
Picc gardens,
Along Mosley street,
change junction with second city crossing to triangle north of St Peters square and stop in Princess St
Along A34 with Stop at Deansgate
Along A6 with stops at Chapel Street, University/Salford Crescent
Pendleton (reopened)
Swinton
Moorside
Walkden
Ellenbrook
Tyldesley
Leigh

This was looked at as part of the tram-train strategy (though to Wigan rather than Leigh). Other routes had much better business cases, probably because of the extent of expensive city-centre track that this one would need.

 

[Springs Branch]

I remember reading that before closure, this line was considered suitable for electrification.

If so, what happened?

The Picc-Vic scheme and the electrification proposal mentioned by the OP relate to the early 1970s.

Funnily enough, a decade before that, Bolton-Bury-Rochdale was one of the few non-main lines in the North-West which was listed for "Retain & Develop" rather than "Closure" by Beeching.

It's a bit strange that Bolton-Rochdale was considered worthy of keeping when other reasonably well-used lines in the area were proposed for closure.
But then again there were many weird anomalies in the Beeching report. Some other examples from the Reshaping map for the North-West were:

Retain & Develop: Bolton - Bury - Rochdale
Close: Manchester - Bury (electric line)

Retain & Develop: Southport - Wigan - Manchester Vic
Close: Southport - Liverpool Exchange (future Merseyrail Northern Line)

Retain & Develop: Liverpool Exchange - Ormskirk - Preston (as a through route)
Close: Liverpool Exchange - Kirkby - Wigan Wallgate and Liverpool Lime St - St.Helens - Wigan NW

Retain & Develop: Rose Grove - Colne - Skipton
Close: Rose Grove - Todmorden (via Copy Pit)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Some 1930s houses in Addiscombe Road also went to provide the exit from the old Woodside - Selsdon line to get to East Croydon.

People are human beings with feelings and I am sure that some of the older residents in those 1930's houses would have memories of life in their homes that no amount of relocation recompense could ever compensate for.

 

[Emyr]

How barbaric.

At least they wouldn't be miserable for long.

 

[21C101]

People are human beings with feelings and I am sure that some of the older residents in those 1930's houses would have memories of life in their homes that no amount of relocation recompense could ever compensate for.

Indeed, but the test is whether it is for the common good.

Those 1930s houses were noteworthy in that there had never been a railway before where they were.

In the cases of people who buy houses on former railway alignments, they are taking a gamble that a known transport corridor will never be needed again so I have less sympathy.

 

[edwin_m]

From memory it was only three or four 1930s houses at Croydon. One of these was intact but lost its garden, and became the office of Tramtrack Croydon.

 

[steamybrian]

From memory it was only three or four 1930s houses at Croydon. One of these was intact but lost its garden, and became the office of Tramtrack Croydon.

Correct -Sandilands Tram Station now occupies their site.

I can confirm that some newly built houses on the former site of Coombe Road station were demolished for Croydon Tramlink. They were so new that I believe one or two were never occupied.
There was also a small new housing development (or small block of apartments) just south of Blackhorse Lane that was demolished for Croydon Tramlink.

 

[chorleyjeff]

People are human beings with feelings and I am sure that some of the older residents in those 1930's houses would have memories of life in their homes that no amount of relocation recompense could ever compensate for.

I did CPO valuations of hundreds of slumclearance houses. I always felt sory for the owner occupiers of the "little palaces" but most of the houses were unhealthy holes riddled with damp and falling apart for which landlords got site value of, usually, 10 bob per square foot ( or was it per yard? ) Most people seemed quite pleased to be moved to sanitary and warm houses or flats. I suppose the landlords might have felt peeved.
The idea that an Englishman's house is his castle seems quite a new idea unless you were part of the middle classes who bought into the idea of owner occupation or upper class. For most of us loosing your house meant you just rented somewhere different.
Nobody was ever compensated for loss of memories or even disruption, except costs actually incurred. And anyhow how would such memories be detached from the people who had them?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In the cases of people who buy houses on former railway alignments, they are taking a gamble that a known transport corridor will never be needed again so I have less sympathy.

Surely the retained solicitor who is responsible for carrying out search details on behalf of clients would view this matter from a strictly legal point of view when carrying out those tasks.