Bus held up by EPOs

[hungover]

I was in a pub in Ealing Broadway yesterday evening and people were talking about the woman who had been issued a £80 Fixed Penalty Notice for pouring her coffee down a drain.

A fellow in the pub mentioned that he had recently got on a bus at Ealing Broadway to go and pick his son up from school. The (contracted) Environmental Protection Officers got on the bus, held it up and demanded that he get off the bus. He refused to on the grounds that they weren't willing to explain why they wanted him to get off. Not surprisingly, other passengers were now calling him a "selfish c***" for delaying their journey.

As a non-smoker, he suspects that it was a case of mistaken identity (with them thinking that he had dropped a cigarette whilst in the queue).

Are they legally allowed to even get on the bus without paying, let alone detain it?

 

[daikilo]

A fellow in the pub mentioned that he had recently got on a bus at Ealing Broadway to go and pick his son up from school. The (contracted) Environmental Protection Officers got on the bus, held it up and demanded that he get off the bus. He refused to on the grounds that they weren't willing to explain why they wanted him to get off. Not surprisingly, other passengers were now calling him a "selfish c***" for delaying their journey.

As a non-smoker, he suspects that it was a case of mistaken identity (with them thinking that he had dropped a cigarette whilst in the queue).

Are they legally allowed to even get on the bus without paying, let alone detain it?

I assume the EPOs were contracted by the local council and not by the bus operator. As such, as far as I can see in texts in gov.uk, they are only to "enforce" at the location where the event has occured.

I interpret this as meaning that, unlike police officers, they do not have the right to enter property for that purpose. Indeed, whilst the bus driver may choose to ask the "offender" to leave his bus at the request of the EPOs, I see no evidence that he would be justified in not moving until it had occured.

I haven't been able to identify what happens if an EPO/s board the bus and attempt to prevent it moving, my interpretation is it would be obstruction.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm quite happy with strong enforcement against litterers - it is a filthy habit, whatever it is you drop[1]. But I don't see a problem with pouring a cup of coffee down a grid then putting the cup in a bin. Probably poorly-trained officers - this is why I would rather see properly trained Police Officers enforcing the law, and properly trained Traffic Wardens enforcing parking.

[1] I knew smokers who used to carry a film canister around to put their butts into instead of the filthy habit of throwing them on the ground. There must be a modern equivalent

 

[daikilo]

I'm quite happy with strong enforcement against litterers - it is a filthy habit, whatever it is you drop[1]. But I don't see a problem with pouring a cup of coffee down a grid then putting the cup in a bin. Probably poorly-trained officers - this is why I would rather see properly trained Police Officers enforcing the law, and properly trained Traffic Wardens enforcing parking.

[1] I knew smokers who used to carry a film canister around to put their butts into instead of the filthy habit of throwing them on the ground. There must be a modern equivalent

Neil, what many do not realise is that road "grids" are usually considered to be for water run-off. Coffee/tea, with or without milk and sugar, is a polutant.

Re cigarette butts, the more enlightened smokers do "bin" their butts correctly including taking them with them. Also, many will place them in a provided recepticle when they enter a smoke-free location. The problem is that some do not, in the same way that sandwich bags, sweet wrappers, bus tickets, free newssheets and other general rubbish just gets dumped by others on the ground if no waste bin is provided. Filthy habit is an appropriate term.

 

[Andyh82]

I would have thought pouring a coffee down the drain would be better than putting it in the bin, meaning coffee leaks everywhere when the bins are emptied.

 

[Darandio]

Neil, what many do not realise is that road "grids" are usually considered to be for water run-off. Coffee/tea, with or without milk and sugar, is a polutant.

And the water that runs-off takes diesel, oil, rubber and hundreds of other very dirty things down the drain too, all far more dangerous than a hot brew.

Whoever decided an £80 penalty is warranted for pouring coffee down there needs to give their head a shake. The world is literally going bonkers with these far fetched schemes to bring in new income.

 

[GatwickDepress]

Neil, what many do not realise is that road "grids" are usually considered to be for water run-off. Coffee/tea, with or without milk and sugar, is a polutant.

I'm not completely understanding this - aren't tea and coffee essentially flavoured water? The rainwater running along a gutter must pick up worse pollutants before it enters the system.

 

[daikilo]

I'm not completely understanding this - aren't tea and coffee essentially flavoured water? The rainwater running along a gutter must pick up worse pollutants before it enters the system.

Yes, but read the small print, it is enlightening, and lacking realism.

 

[Busaholic]

Other boroughs where individuals are given a uniform and instructed to harass the populace are Sandwell and Maidstone : in the latter, a grandmother was issued with a fine for letting her granddaughter feed the ducks at a local pond. A common feature is picking on older people, particularly women, and reveals both an officious streak in some of the personnel and a refusal by some of the authorities to recognise that their primary purpose is to serve and be useful to the local people.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Neil, what many do not realise is that road "grids" are usually considered to be for water run-off. Coffee/tea, with or without milk and sugar, is a polutant.

Not one that actually causes any harm to anyone or anything. If you can drink it, indeed many think it does you good but at worst it's pretty neutral, it's not going to harm the environment. "De minimis non curat lex", and all that.

I don't like the term "jobsworth", but assuming this is exactly as stated it is utterly ridiculous to penalise someone for that act unless they discarded the cup other than in the bin, and that kind of thing is precisely the sort of enforcement that gives such officers a bad name.
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refusal by some of the authorities to recognise that their primary purpose is to serve and be useful to the local people.

Which they would do if they were to go around and do people for actually littering, i.e. deliberately dropping items of waste on the floor as a means of discarding them. There is enough of it going on in just about every town and city to keep them busy for months.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I was in a pub in Ealing Broadway yesterday evening and people were talking about the woman who had been issued a £80 Fixed Penalty Notice for pouring her coffee down a drain.

A fellow in the pub mentioned that he had recently got on a bus at Ealing Broadway to go and pick his son up from school. The (contracted) Environmental Protection Officers got on the bus, held it up and demanded that he get off the bus. He refused to on the grounds that they weren't willing to explain why they wanted him to get off. Not surprisingly, other passengers were now calling him a "selfish c***" for delaying their journey.

As a non-smoker, he suspects that it was a case of mistaken identity (with them thinking that he had dropped a cigarette whilst in the queue).

Are they legally allowed to even get on the bus without paying, let alone detain it?

I can't say that I know the definitive answer, but as a driver I would say catagorically NOT... an EPO does not have the power to arrest or detain, nor do they have the power of entry... furthermore they are not employees of the contracting authority nor the bus company..

Certainly as a driver in that situation I would demand to know what law they are acting under, and when inevitably given an unsatisfactory answer I would inform them that they had 3 choices... a) pay the fare sit down and travel according to the conditions of carriage (ie cause no harrassment or distress to other passengers) or b) get off the vehicle or c) refuse either of the above and have the embarrassment of being removed forcibly by the police!

 

[73001]

Not one that actually causes any harm to anyone or anything. If you can drink it, indeed many think it does you good but at worst it's pretty neutral, it's not going to harm the environment. "De minimis non curat lex", and all that.

...not strictly true. Milk is considered to be one of the worst pollutants if released into the environment. In waterways it can cause a massive increase in bacterial growth which then leads to fish deaths etc etc. Im not defending their actions in any way but there is logic behind them, if not much common sense!

 

[AM9]

Other boroughs where individuals are given a uniform and instructed to harass the populace are Sandwell and Maidstone : in the latter, a grandmother was issued with a fine for letting her granddaughter feed the ducks at a local pond. A common feature is picking on older people, particularly women, and reveals both an officious streak in some of the personnel and a refusal by some of the authorities to recognise that their primary purpose is to serve and be useful to the local people.

Actually, the indiscriminate feeding of ducks, particularly with bread, (the most common offering) is a gross pollutant. For years the public have been throwing their bread in the lake in Verulamium Park, St Albans despite informative notices to the contrary. For the last two summers, the lake has been infected with botulism, killing many of the birds that live or visit it and presenting a not inconsiderable risk to the public. The clean-up work has taken many weeks, but there are still morons who continue to ignore the prohibition notices. Maybe there needs to be serious measures taken to make people aware of the stupidity of their ways as had to be done with feeding the pigeons in Trafalgar Square. So often, the ignorant members of the public just dismiss attempts to keep the environment safe as 'elf 'n safety gone mad' and those trying to do it as 'jobsworths'.