Buses in Greater Manchester - Current State/Future

[TheGrandWazoo]

Oh, I have, they're considerably better where I'm from in Derbyshire. Contactless-Oyster-Style payment with Mango, live bus departures displayed at the stops and buses that make Manchester's look like a horse and cart. I don't doubt there is probably worse service in more rural areas or smaller cities, but I'd expect better of Manchester.

Compared to other countries, our service across the UK is frankly embarrassing.

Indeed but it requires investment, not some false utopia that franchising can "sort it".

And of course, Derbyshire has had more than enough cuts to their bus services in recent years because of budget cuts.

 

[KendalKing]

Oh, I have, they're considerably better where I'm from in Derbyshire.

Where I live in North Lancashire, we use to get four buses per an hour between 7am and 11pm, now we get one bus per an hour between 9.30am and 6.30pm.

 

[cnjb8]

Where I live in North Lancashire, we use to get four buses per an hour between 7am and 11pm, now we get one bus per an hour between 9.30am and 6.30pm.

I feel Derbyshire is a mismatch of good and bad, I think south of Bakewell is better than the north of it.

 

[Jozhua]

I feel Derbyshire is a mismatch of good and bad, I think south of Bakewell is better than the north of it.

Yeah I'd agree.

I was chatting to someone on another site who moved the other direction to me (from Manchester to Sheffield) we got talking about the two cities and mentioned the ridiculous price of the buses! Obviously prices are a bit rubbish in other areas too, but in Manchester things seem to be perticularly bad.

Obviously comparing Manchester to London or cities in other countries helps when comparing regulation vs deregulation. However, is there any perticular reason buses are more expensive in Manchester than other UK towns/cities with deregulated networks?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Cheshire East council is not averse to wielding the sharpest of metaphorical axes to any tendered routes, as proved by such cuts over recent years.

 

[Man of Kent]

However, is there any perticular reason buses are more expensive in Manchester than other UK towns/cities with deregulated networks?

It may relate to the statutory child fare scheme that TfGM requires operators to participate in. As has been discussed at length about the national ENCTS scheme, this has a tendency to push up adult single fares, as that is what reimbursement is based on. If Manchester's child scheme is similarly underfunded, then operators may have responded accordingly.

 

[Jozhua]

It may relate to the statutory child fare scheme that TfGM requires operators to participate in. As has been discussed at length about the national ENCTS scheme, this has a tendency to push up adult single fares, as that is what reimbursement is based on. If Manchester's child scheme is similarly underfunded, then operators may have responded accordingly.

Oh dear, seems rather short sighted if that is the case, the free-U18 fare scheme did strike me as a bit strange.

The scheme is designed to encourage good habits, in regards to public transportation. However, the clear barrier is that as soon as they hit 18, it will cost £5-10 to get there and back even within just Greater Manchester.

I was under the impression ENCTS offered free travel through at least a reasonable contribution towards the cost of the trips. It did strike me as unfair, having to pay so much to go to college (especially during rush hour) to continue my mandatory education. However, at one point I changed my mind based on the assumption it was just a wierd roundabout subsidy for bus travel, which benefits everyone.

If these schemes are just being funded through forcing operators into price gouging, this would seem a rather unfair, short term approach. I mean, these buses are lifelines for lower income working age folks, who are having to bear the brunt of funding free transport for likely a lot of economically better off over 65's and under 18's. Obviously youth mobility is important, as is tackling poverty in old age (and encouraging some older folk who probably shouldn't drive out of their cars...) but I think everyone would agree that councils should either properly fund the schemes or be honest and say the money isn't there, instead of forcing bus companies to gouge the rest of us on price, further accelerating the decline in use.

I don't use buses due primarily to price, I take the train because (somehow), its cheaper, if less convenient.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Not sure what the current fares are now but when I went to Manchester a few years back only children living in the Greater Manchester boundary were entitled to a child fare.

So if a child from outside the area was to get a bus they'd have to pay an adult fare. That's not right personally.

 

[Ianno87]

Not sure what the current fares are now but when I went to Manchester a few years back only children living in the Greater Manchester boundary were entitled to a child fare.

So if a child from outside the area was to get a bus they'd have to pay an adult fare. That's not right personally.

Up to 11 you can pay child fares for anybody.

From 11 onwards, an igo pass is required, only available to GM residents (or those who attend school in GM).

 

[markymark2000]

Oh dear, seems rather short sighted if that is the case, the free-U18 fare scheme did strike me as a bit strange.

Most of those who benefit from the OurPass scheme will now have the voting power at this mayoral election. It's about buying votes. Keep the kids happy to win votes early on.

Hence why you have to pay for bus fares if you are under 16 or above 19.

 

[Rod Harrison]

Given the demise of MCT, closure of Jim Stones and Diamond pulling out of majority of Wigan services, the state of Manchester buses is interesting to say the least!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Given the demise of MCT, closure of Jim Stones and Diamond pulling out of majority of Wigan services, the state of Manchester buses is interesting to say the least!

I think that the end date for MCT is late April, so it gives a couple of months leeway for service replacements.

 

[markymark2000]

Given the demise of MCT, closure of Jim Stones and Diamond pulling out of majority of Wigan services, the state of Manchester buses is interesting to say the least!

Diamond have just lost the Wigan tenders haven't they not really pulling out.

 

[winston270twm]

Diamond have just lost the Wigan tenders haven't they not really pulling out.

No, I believe Diamond chose to exit the Wigan area tendered services at the end of their current contracts, they're not that close to DBNW depots, plus the overall Pvr reduction helps to improve the remaining driver shortage situation.

 

[markymark2000]

No, I believe Diamond chose to exit the Wigan area tendered services at the end of their current contracts, they're not that close to DBNW depots, plus the overall Pvr reduction helps to improve the remaining driver shortage situation.

Ahh, fair enough.
Even so, withdrawing from the area to focus on main areas when they are having such big issues driver wise, it is a good decision. Nothing would stop them expanding out to Wigan again when/as they have the vehicles and drivers.

 

[winston270twm]

Ahh, fair enough.
Even so, withdrawing from the area to focus on main areas when they are having such big issues driver wise, it is a good decision. Nothing would stop them expanding out to Wigan again when/as they have the vehicles and drivers.

The driver shortage issue isn't that big anymore, there are other underlying issues such as communication / managing effectively / adapting to new working practises & prioritising etc. It's in DBNW's interest to provide a better standard of / more reliable service on their frequent commercial services as a top priority, it is those services that will help them recoup their investment / grow quicker in the future, they can worry about being bigger running marginal tendered services once things are running more smoothly.

Even prior to Rotala buying First Bolton, I was told that another potential suiter looked at Bolton, but decided against it early on due to the cost & amount of management time required to turn Bolton from former First working practises & it was also loss making, driver shortages & lost mileage were rife then. The rot has been setting in for a good while and isn't a quick fix.

 

[Rod Harrison]

Diamond have just lost the Wigan tenders haven't they not really pulling out.

True, but still quite a number of services to be covered throughout Greater Manchester. I accept that the circumstances are for different reasons but interesting that all these happen at the end of April.

 

[gazmark]

Yeah I'd agree.

I was chatting to someone on another site who moved the other direction to me (from Manchester to Sheffield) we got talking about the two cities and mentioned the ridiculous price of the buses! Obviously prices are a bit rubbish in other areas too, but in Manchester things seem to be perticularly bad.

Obviously comparing Manchester to London or cities in other countries helps when comparing regulation vs deregulation. However, is there any perticular reason buses are more expensive in Manchester than other UK towns/cities with deregulated networks?

Are you sure about sheffield!!!!, Worst Sheffield are one of the most useless operations within Worst. Perminant cancellations on the X78, last Tuesday no buses running on the route between 16:00 to 18:00 with my local route 36 being run down to hourly from every 15 minutes a few years ago, add in no evening and sunday buses now and a network Worst seem to be determined to run down.

Any group sensible would not buy either Sheffield or Doncaster, very limited engineering and maintainance facilities at either depot, lack of drivers with poor morale (3 drivers I know want out) and the failure of the Streetdeck fleet, which most of the time broke down or failed trying to get up Sheffield's hills.

Stagecoach have a good operation with simular fares to Worst, but much better vehicles and a set of drivers with much better morale, it's a shame in the mid nineties they weren't allowed to buy Mainline by the OFT/MMC and we were forced into having First group instead, we might have had a much better service.

 

[Robertj21a]

Are you sure about sheffield!!!!, Worst Sheffield are one of the most useless operations within Worst. Perminant cancellations on the X78, last Tuesday no buses running on the route between 16:00 to 18:00 with my local route 36 being run down to hourly from every 15 minutes a few years ago, add in no evening and sunday buses now and a network Worst seem to be determined to run down.

Any group sensible would not buy either Sheffield or Doncaster, very limited engineering and maintainance facilities at either depot, lack of drivers with poor morale (3 drivers I know want out) and the failure of the Streetdeck fleet, which most of the time broke down or failed trying to get up Sheffield's hills.

Stagecoach have a good operation with simular fares to Worst, but much better vehicles and a set of drivers with much better morale, it's a shame in the mid nineties they weren't allowed to by Mainline by the OFT/MMC and we were forced into having First group instead, we might have had a much better service.

Regrettably, First South Yorkshire is probably accepted nowadays as one of the fleets with the poorest reputation. Fleet presentation is bad, notably at Doncaster, and maintenance has had a number of problems in recent times. Needless to say there has been little interest from others in acquiring FSY.

 

[winston270twm]

Regrettably, First South Yorkshire is probably accepted nowadays as one of the fleets with the poorest reputation. Fleet presentation is bad, notably at Doncaster, and maintenance has had a number of problems in recent times. Needless to say there has been little interest from others in acquiring FSY.

Olive Grove doesn't seem any better for maintenance either, large numbers of VOR's (Leicester been helping out with maintenance etc), it must also have one of the poorer fleet age profiles.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Did I mis-hear a conversation where someone said Merseyside was considering a similar overlordship of transport similar to the TfGM aspirations?

 

[gazmark]

Olive Grove doesn't seem any better for maintenance either, large numbers of VOR's (Leicester been helping out with maintenance etc), it must also have one of the poorer fleet age profiles.

TBH Winston, most heavy internal maintainace is now done at Doncaster, not Olive Grove, which now just does basic maintainance unless it's contracted out to third parties now, most of the best engineers have either walked or retired unfortunately.

 

[winston270twm]

TBH Winston, most heavy internal maintainace is now done at Doncaster, not Olive Grove, which now just does basic maintainance unless it's contracted out to third parties now, most of the best engineers have either walked or retired unfortunately.

No way. One of First Groups biggest depots doesn't even do the bulk of it's own maintenance.

 

[gazmark]

No way. One of First Groups biggest depots doesn't even do the bulk of it's own maintenance.

To quote the travel south yorkshire forum from earlier this year:

"There’s so many good engineering staff gone from Olive Grove in the last couple of years, some of them had been on the job years too".
"Correct 100's of years worth of knowledge and experience have mostly walked away from FSY, a few pushed out and some early retirement.
Another long serving Controller goes tomorrow".

It's a well known joke around Olive Grove, there are around 40-50 unserviceable vehicles parked up in the back. Also add in vehicle shortages around Christmas, cancelled services every day is spread around a number of services (X1/X10/X78 is a prime example).

TBH this mess has started since first decided to shut Midland Road (Rotherham) which struggled to make money but did most of the warrenty / maintainance for the Yorkshire fleets, but this has hit South Yorkshire much worse than West Yorkshire.

 

[winston270twm]

To quote the travel south yorkshire forum from earlier this year:

"There’s so many good engineering staff gone from Olive Grove in the last couple of years, some of them had been on the job years too".
"Correct 100's of years worth of knowledge and experience have mostly walked away from FSY, a few pushed out and some early retirement.
Another long serving Controller goes tomorrow".

It's a well known joke around Olive Grove, there are around 40-50 unserviceable vehicles parked up in the back. Also add in vehicle shortages around Christmas, cancelled services every day is spread around a number of services (X1/X10/X78 is a prime example).

TBH this mess has started since first decided to shut Midland Road (Rotherham) which struggled to make money but did most of the warrenty / maintainance for the Yorkshire fleets, but this has hit South Yorkshire much worse than West Yorkshire.

Tbh, I'm not surprised, I've heard very similar at a number of other First depots / operating companies.

Stagecoach clearly offer a superior service in Sheffield & manage to make good money.

 

[Robertj21a]

To quote the travel south yorkshire forum from earlier this year:

"There’s so many good engineering staff gone from Olive Grove in the last couple of years, some of them had been on the job years too".
"Correct 100's of years worth of knowledge and experience have mostly walked away from FSY, a few pushed out and some early retirement.
Another long serving Controller goes tomorrow".

It's a well known joke around Olive Grove, there are around 40-50 unserviceable vehicles parked up in the back. Also add in vehicle shortages around Christmas, cancelled services every day is spread around a number of services (X1/X10/X78 is a prime example).

TBH this mess has started since first decided to shut Midland Road (Rotherham) which struggled to make money but did most of the warrenty / maintainance for the Yorkshire fleets, but this has hit South Yorkshire much worse than West Yorkshire.

I believe that some disputes and poor industrial relations have also done nothing to help matters.

 

[Jozhua]

Are you sure about sheffield!!!!, Worst Sheffield are one of the most useless operations within Worst. Perminant cancellations on the X78, last Tuesday no buses running on the route between 16:00 to 18:00 with my local route 36 being run down to hourly from every 15 minutes a few years ago, add in no evening and sunday buses now and a network Worst seem to be determined to run down.

Any group sensible would not buy either Sheffield or Doncaster, very limited engineering and maintainance facilities at either depot, lack of drivers with poor morale (3 drivers I know want out) and the failure of the Streetdeck fleet, which most of the time broke down or failed trying to get up Sheffield's hills.

Stagecoach have a good operation with simular fares to Worst, but much better vehicles and a set of drivers with much better morale, it's a shame in the mid nineties they weren't allowed to buy Mainline by the OFT/MMC and we were forced into having First group instead, we might have had a much better service.

I can't make any comments on the quality of the service, but I've heard cheaper options are available in Sheffield. The cheapest Manchester Stagecoach ticket is £2, usually around £2.50 - £3 for a single. First, Diamond and Go Northwest offer singles starting at £2.70, or £3.60 for 'premium' busway services. The X17 bus is quite good quality and prices aren't unreasonable, although they have risen quite noticeably in the past couple of years.

Tbh, I'm not surprised, I've heard very similar at a number of other First depots / operating companies.

Stagecoach clearly offer a superior service in Sheffield & manage to make good money.

Stagecoach are certainly more prevalent in Sheffield! They run the Supertram too.