Buying a London boundary zone ticket to destinations not in London

[nw10ib]

An answered 2013 post of the above tells people that unless the train stops at the boundary zone station, you'll not be able to use these tickets from another boarding one. This is completely and utterly NOT TRUE. For many years I've been buying a Coulsdon South (Boundary Zone 6) ticket to Crawley, in Sussex but catching the fast train to that Sussex destination from Victoria's terminus, which does NOT stop at Coulsdon South and every ticket collector that looks at my two tickets (an all London zone elder person's Freedom pass & the Coulsdon to Crawley one) allows these two tickets as qualifying tickets for my entire journey.

The only problem I get is British Rail's internet site, which doesn't seem to realise that there are any London zone boundary tickets for sale, while the individual ticket offices at all London stations aren't able to provide a ticket from these individual boundary zone stations, only Boundary Zone tickets. You would think that British Rail and Travel For London would get their act together, wouldn't you?

The above does not create any problem for me because to discover the actual price of the ticket I intend to buy, I first Google "Boundary Zone 6 station to (my destination)" to find out the name of that individual boundary zone station and then present that to British Rail's website, while, at my local station I buy a Boundary Zone 6 to that intended destination, for the same fee that British Rail's website tells me I am entitled to pay. A price, I might add, that every local London station would prefer to NOT charge me, opting instead for a more expensive one.

Very complicated but it works. The alternative DOES NOT because the local stations are unable to locate these individual stations on their computer systems.

 

[yorkie]

Please provide a hyperlink to, and quote of, any source to which you refer.

British Rail does not exist.

A Freedom Pass is treated as if it were a Season ticket for this purpose and can be combined with any other ticket on non-stop trains.

Yes a ticket from Coulsdon South to Crawley can be used and the train does not need to call (though the fare from East Croydon is likely the same anyway).

 

[nw10ib]

I know British Rail does not exist "as an individual state owned company" any longer but I'm used to calling the UK national trains service this; after all: it's only a name and I'm not using it in any legal context.

I do not exactly understand your point. Are you saying that a Freedom pass is not the same as a London zone Travel Card, which would prevent the use of high speed train travel, as I can get?

If this is true, what would be the advantage of buying any London Travel Card?

You are talking with an eighty years old man who hasn't a clue what a Hyperlink is.

 

[PeterC]

I believe that there have been changes to harmonise the rules for different types of ticket but historically the rules differed depending on the types of ticket held. A stop was never necessary for using boundary zone tickets. There were different rules for combining tickets at named station which sometimes got quoted incorrectly on discussions about TfL zones.

I believe that bounary zone tickets cannot be bought online (they certainly couldn't a couple of years ago) but only from ticket offices or ticket machines. They are only available for single or return journeys starting wtihin the zones.

 

[yorkie]

I know British Rail does not exist "as an individual state owned company" any longer but I'm used to calling the UK national trains service this; after all: it's only a name and I'm not using it in any legal context.

In order to avoid confusion, it's best to use the term 'National Rail services'

I do not exactly understand your point. Are you saying that a Freedom pass is not the same as a London zone Travel Card, which would prevent the use of high speed train travel, as I can get?

Freedom Passes and Travelcards are both Zonal products.

My understanding is that a Freedom Pass is also considered to be a Season ticket for the purposes of Condition 14 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel. A Travelcard valid for 7 days or more would also qualify.

If this is true, what would be the advantage of buying any London Travel Card?

For a Freedom Pass holder travelling off peak? Quite possibly none.

You are talking with an eighty years old man who hasn't a clue what a Hyperlink is.

The link to the website you are referring to. It'll be in the address bar. There are websites that explain what a hyperlink is, and how to copy a link and paste it.

Without that, we do not know what you are referring to.

However if you think you have read something incorrect dated 2013, then it may be easier to simply ignore it, and simply ask us what the rules regarding Freedom Passes actually are, and we can help you with that. Hopefully it's a bit clearer now.

 

[Ralph Ayres]

Do remember that a Freedom Pass is not valid on Gatwick Express at all, so you can't use it on those services in combination with a Boundary Zone extension ticket.

 

[yorkie]

Do remember that a Freedom Pass is not valid on Gatwick Express at all, so you can't use it on those services in combination with a Boundary Zone extension ticket.

The issue of whether or not a Freedom Pass would be valid, in conjunction with a ticket from the Zone 6 boundary, on non-stop trains operated by GTR - who, for the record, do receive revenue to convey customers as far as the Zone 6 boundary - is hotly contested and highly debatable; I suggest we do not get into that debate on this thread because it has been done to death before.

However if anyone holding such a combination is ever charged an excess fare by GTR, I would be very interested to hear from them, though I can't say any more than that.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

The issue of whether or not a Freedom Pass would be valid

Terms and conditions of Freedom Pass say it isn't valid on Gatwick Express.

https://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/services/freedom-pass/using-pass/national-rail

The Freedom Pass is not valid for travel on train services operated by:

• East Midlands Trains
• Grand Central
• Hull Trains
• Gatwick Express (between London Victoria and Gatwick)
• Heathrow Express
• Heathrow Connect between Hayes & Harlington and Heathrow
• Virgin Trains East Coast
• Southeastern high speed services to and from St Pancras International and Stratford International

If you are travelling by National Rail you need to make sure you are travelling within the Freedom Pass boundaries or you may receive a penalty fare. If you wish to travel beyond the Freedom Pass area you must buy a separate extension ticket before you travel. Extension tickets used in conjunction with a Freedom Pass are NOT valid on services operated by any of the Train Companies listed above. Always show your Freedom Pass with your photograph at the ticket office when buying extension tickets. Holders of Senior and Disabled Persons Railcards may be able to obtain a discount on the price of extension tickets.

 

[yorkie]

No services are currently "operated by Gatwick Express".

As I said, the issue over whether or not it is valid (or, shall I say, whether or not the company can legally refuse to convey passengers for which it receives the revenue to do so) is hotly debated and it is best not discussed further in this thread.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Absolutely years ago it was the case that Boundary Zone tickets were not valid on any TOC that didn't have two stops within Zones 1-6. At the time that meant FGW (before Thames Trains was incorporated in), VTWC, MML, GatEx (when it wasn't in GTR) and whatever East Coast was called at the time.

This however was dropped years ago, so a 1-6 Travelcard and a BZ ticket have the same kind of validity (give or take the restriction code) as an outboundary Travelcard would the other way round.

Freedom Passes and similar may have other stipulations...or may not!

 

[nw10ib]

Please provide a hyperlink to, and quote of, any source to which you refer.

British Rail does not exist.

A Freedom Pass is treated as if it were a Season ticket for this purpose and can be combined with any other ticket on non-stop trains.

Yes a ticket from Coulsdon South to Crawley can be used and the train does not need to call (though the fare from East Croydon is likely the same anyway).

Absolutely years ago it was the case that Boundary Zone tickets were not valid on any TOC that didn't have two stops within Zones 1-6. At the time that meant FGW (before Thames Trains was incorporated in), VTWC, MML, GatEx (when it wasn't in GTR) and whatever East Coast was called at the time.

This however was dropped years ago, so a 1-6 Travelcard and a BZ ticket have the same kind of validity (give or take the restriction code) as an outboundary Travelcard would the other way round.

Freedom Passes and similar may have other stipulations...or may not!

I think I may have known that I couldn't travel on the Gatwick Express but things get hazy as you get older and you forget what you've previously known. As for not being able to buy a ticket on the UK's rail networks' online site, there is always an option to do this (again: I can't remember for how long). I've not tried because I wouldn't know how to put it in my wallet, if I was to buy one online. Presumably, I'd have to wait for this to be delivered to me by Royal Mail? That would take time and something that I think unnecessary; at least for me.

What I did discover twenty years ago when I first started accessing the internet to find out these fares, fares INTO London are always cheaper than for the same journey OUTWARD. This may have changed recently but left to my local rail station to buy a return ticket from Crawley to Boundary Zone 6. last year: I would have to pay 50p more than if I bought a return ticket from Boundary Zone 6 to Crawley.

 

[swt_passenger]

An answered 2013 post of the above tells people that unless the train stops at the boundary zone station...

I don't really think we are going to get very far unless you can help us get back to this post. What you have read from 2013 has to be seen in the overall context of the discussion at that time.
If you cannot provide a URL (weblink) to it, perhaps you could just reply with the thread subject, relevant post number (or author and date)?

 

[nw10ib]

Boundary Zone Tickets: discussion in Fares, Advice & Policy started by: "Julesjwoods" on 25 January, 2013

For some unknown reason I can't copy & paste what this guy said in his post so I've had to type out his initial paragraph manually, hereunder:

"Why don't any ticket sellers know anything about these - surely I'm not the only person that uses them. I've just been on the phone to National Rail, FGW and The Train Line and no one can help me.... grumble".

I've copied what this guy wrote, verbatim.

He continues but you can read further from his original post, now that I've provided you with the information you have requested.

 

[JBuchananGB]

It is correct that tickets to/from Boundary Zone points cannot be bought on-line, but can be bought at ticket offices, but the fares can be found online. In this case the anytime day return fare from BZ6 to Crawley is the same as that from Coulsdon South, namely £8.70 for the holder of a Senior Railcard or £13.20 without. Off-peak day return £6.60 with railcard £10 without. nw10ib does not mention whether he holds a Senior Railcard, but he certainly could obtain one for the appropriate fee.
Tickets bought online, such as at https://www.southernrailway.com/ can be collected from ticket machines at stations, or indeed posted to you by means of Royal Mail. Some booking sites charge a fee for the latter.

 

[nw10ib]

The above is what I originally wrote. You can't buy a ticket mentioning any BZ zone to your intended destination online. You need to find out the individual name of the last station in that zone (this I do using Google because National rail's site wont do this for me) and then buy or submit that information onto national rail's website BUT at the individual station (mine is Kensal Rise) you can't buy any individual station's ticket (in my case: Coulsdon South), only a BZ one.

My original point and that of the original 2013 writer was and still is: The National Rail site and individual London stations should get together and provide correlative tickets. The idea of any search engine is to make the life of the end user (in this case: the seeker of information on BZ tickets for journeys out of London) as easy as possible and not as difficult as National Rail's site makes it.

In 1998 there was room for improvement; in 2013, also and today what was offered twenty years ago is the same as what is today. I think it's about time National Rail's website was updated to include these BZ zones and individual stations' online computer systems to include the names of individual stations in boundary zones, don't you?

Yesterday, I bought from Kensal Rise station a Boundary Zone 6 to Crawley cheap day return ticket for: £10. Six years ago, I could have bought from that same station a: Crawley to Boundary Zone 6 cheap day return ticket for 50p less of the then current price of the former but for the past five years: Kensal Rise station has not permitted me to do this.

What Kensal Rise station CANNOT do is provide me with a Coulsdon South to Crawley cheap day return ticket. The last time I was able to buy such a ticket was in 1997.

I agree, though, with a former "threader". We have exhausted this topic. Clearly, nothing is going to change on National Rail's online site or at any of their London stations, as I had hoped that the re-creation of this original 2013 thread might. I've enjoyed reading all writer's input; thanks for doing this but it's now time to say: bye.

Regards,
John Burslem (nw10jb)