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Caledonian Sleeper Daytime Services

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EcsWhyZee

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Having been fortunate enough to stay at Rannoch Station on Saturday night I noticed on the platform the modern (and somewhat out of place, but very nice) Caledonian Sleeper screen.

On this screen it said that “Caledonian Sleeper daytime services are currently suspended due to COVID-19”.

I never knew they ran daytime services, nor can I find information on any such service online.

Does anyone know more about this?
 
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Bletchleyite

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This refers to the use of the Sleeper seated coaches as day trains, which normally happens in both directions between FW and Edinburgh, and in one direction towards Inverness.
 

EcsWhyZee

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Thanks for the information. :)

So do these operate as Caledonian Sleeper or are they effectively Scotrail but just in the nicer carriages? Is there a more premium price affixed to them?

Also, are these services usually in addition to the Scotrail trains that are currently running? (E.g. 3 a day most days and 2 on a Sunday?)
 

185143

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Thanks for the information. :)

So do these operate as Caledonian Sleeper or are they effectively Scotrail but just in the nicer carriages? Is there a more premium price affixed to them?

Also, are these services usually in addition to the Scotrail trains that are currently running? (E.g. 3 a day most days and 2 on a Sunday?)
You board in exactly the same way as you would a ScotRail 156, though they are supposedly reservations compulsory. It's the regular sleeper service that's still running, just they normally let you use the seated coach for local journeys between Fort William and Edinburgh, and also Kingussie to Inverness in that direction only. Makes sense as the Fort William seats will never be full due to needing to change into the ex Aberdeen seats at Edinburgh normally.

It also means they get a portion of revenue for any ticket sold which is valid on their train. As they run around 20% of the service of that line, it may be a reasonable income.
 

superjohn

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They are referring to the seated cars conveyed with the sleeper trains to and from London rather than extra daytime trains. The sleepers usually accept day passengers with regular tickets within Scotland but they are not currently accepting any seated passengers.

They are in addition to the Scotrail services and would normally accept regular tickets without a premium. They ostensibly require reservations but you are unlikely to be turned away for a local journey if there are seats available, in normal circumstances of course.
 

EcsWhyZee

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Ah I understand. So it essentially means “You can’t board the sleeper from here on the short journey to Fort William in the morning during coronavirus. Existing customers from London etc only”.
 

Bletchleyite

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Ah I understand. So it essentially means “You can’t board the sleeper from here on the short journey to Fort William in the morning during coronavirus. Existing customers from London etc only”.

Yes, correct. Unlike on the Night Riviera the seating coaches are completely out of use (but need to be present otherwise the halfwitted TMS gets confused).
 

StephenHunter

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Pre-Covid, there wasn't a seated coach (or indeed restaurant car) that ran all the way from London to Fort William due to lack of space on the platform for one, so it was added at Edinburgh. When I rode on it in 2016, it was a hired in Mark 2 in InterCity livery...

Now all Mark 5s of course.
 

jopsuk

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Yes, correct. Unlike on the Night Riviera the seating coaches are completely out of use (but need to be present otherwise the halfwitted TMS gets confused).
Is the seated carriage also (as it was for the previous stock) a "brake" carriage, or do the Mark 5s not need a dedicated one? The Club Car certainly appears to have no function in the current operation
 

alistairlees

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Is the seated carriage also (as it was for the previous stock) a "brake" carriage, or do the Mark 5s not need a dedicated one? The Club Car certainly appears to have no function in the current operation
The seated coach is the brake.
 

Bletchleyite

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The seated coach is the brake.

Must admit I remain flummoxed why the modern generation of UK LHCS, the Sleepers included, has strayed so far away from the way European RIC coaches are basically each standalone with their own brake etc. It almost seems it has been made deliberately complex and unnecessarily reduced flexibility for the future.
 

StephenHunter

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European RIC sleepers are far more likely to be used as through coaches and possibly individual ones at that. CS aside, most loco hauled stuff is pretty standardised.
 

JonathanP

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Must admit I remain flummoxed why the modern generation of UK LHCS, the Sleepers included, has strayed so far away from the way European RIC coaches are basically each standalone with their own brake etc. It almost seems it has been made deliberately complex and unnecessarily reduced flexibility for the future.

I have the impression that many people here look at the continent with rose-tinted glasses when it comes to continued investment in traditional loco-hauled stock. For whatever reason, no-one cares about short term operational flexibility any more, even the tiniest little bit, either in the UK or over here.

The only major European order for sleeping car stock currently is ÖBB's new Nightjet fleet. These will run as fixed 7 coach sets, committing ÖBB to a fixed proportion of seats, couchettes and sleepers for decades to come, and also a minimum portion size. Given that some portions currently run as only 3 cars, it remains to be seen whether this will have a positive(expanded capacity) or negative(reduction in direct services) effect.

To give another examaple Deutsche Bahn's replacement for it's traditional intercity fleet comes in two forms, neither of which are quite what they seem:
  • IC2 loco hauled double deck sets - visually they look like ordinary coaches as very commonly seen on regional services in Germany, but in fact use a unique control system which means they can only be split and joined in a depot. The advantages of this control system over the ordinary one used in hundreds of other double deck coaches are unclear.
  • ECx loco hauled single deck - these will be talgo sets requiring special equipment to seperate and can only be coupled to a special end car so will also run in fixed length sets
Czech Railways has also ordered a batch of standard RIC coaches from Siemens for international services.... but these ones will once again built to run as fixed sets with ordinary corridor connections only at each end and permanent connections in between(quieter and warmer apparently).
 
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StephenHunter

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"Fixed rakes" have been around for decades; the Southern were using them and even allocating them 'unit' numbers.
 

AlbertBeale

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I have the impression that many people here look at the continent with rose-tinted glasses when it comes to continued investment in traditional loco-hauled stock. For whatever reason, no-one cares about short term operational flexibility any more, even the tiniest little bit, either in the UK or over here.

The only major European order for sleeping car stock currently is ÖBB's new Nightjet fleet. These will run as fixed 7 coach sets, committing ÖBB to a fixed proportion of seats, couchettes and sleepers for decades to come, and also a minimum portion size. Given that some portions currently run as only 3 cars, it remains to be seen whether this will have a positive(expanded capacity) or negative(reduction in direct services) effect.

.....

The problem - or not - depends on the growth of the overnight market. The Austrian order isn't a problem if they have enough use for them on main night routes where they need a whole train for the journey, and cascade their existing (more flexible) stock to bolster capacity on mix-and-match routes where trains do need to split and join for the route to be viable. For instance, at least one of the sleepers leaving Zurich each night splits 3 ways en route (and others 2 ways I think);

But I agree that, in general, the move to fixed formations on stock used for international journeys seems short-sighted.
 

30907

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Must admit I remain flummoxed why the modern generation of UK LHCS, the Sleepers included, has strayed so far away from the way European RIC coaches are basically each standalone with their own brake etc. It almost seems it has been made deliberately complex and unnecessarily reduced flexibility for the future.
Not invented here - no, can't be, isn't there an Informed Sources Law to the contrary :)?
Seriously, brake - as opposed to luggage - vehicles have been universal on UK railways since the year dot (or 1889?), so we have stayed away not strayed away.
 
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