Calmac / Northlink Ferry discussion

[Russel]

Couldn't see a thread dedicated to Calmac discussions and I didn't want to clutter the Glen Sannox thread...

I'll start with two questions -

1, What is the plan for the summer Arran service regarding fleet, Glen Sannox and the Alfred or will the MV Isle Of Arran be taking over from the Alfred?

2, Looking at the timetables, Arran services are split between Troon and Ardrossan... is this just a temporary thing?

 

[Jan Mayen]

Am I correct in thinking that CalMac no longer offer passenger cabins?

 

[Blindtraveler]

Has the Alfred tender been extended further
I would be unsurprised if going forward. They didn't make an offer to purchase her from petland ferries. This of course would mean that pentland ferries would have to start all over again with another newbuild as their long-term ambition was always to increase capacity on the service but this is possibly not the place to discuss that

 

[D1024]

What is the plan for the summer Arran service regarding fleet, Glen Sannox and the Alfred or will the MV Isle Of Arran be taking over from the Alfred?

Summer plan is Caledonian Isles sailing Ardrossan - Brodick and Glen Sannox Troon - Brodick. Think Alfred will be going off lease and Isle of Arran needed elsewhere.

 

[Albaman]

Couldn't see a thread dedicated to Calmac discussions and I didn't want to clutter the Glen Sannox thread...

I'll start with two questions -

1, What is the plan for the summer Arran service regarding fleet, Glen Sannox and the Alfred or will the MV Isle Of Arran be taking over from the Alfred?

2, Looking at the timetables, Arran services are split between Troon and Ardrossan... is this just a temporary thing?

Well done for starting a dedicated CalMac thread.

The plans for the summer Arran service are detailed on the Caledonian MacBrayne website.

My understanding is that from Friday 28 March 2025, Caledonian Isles will operate between Ardrossan and Brodick and Glen Sannox will sail between Troon and Brodick. Proposed timetables are on the website.

Obviously, this arrangement is based on the assumption that the various repairs to Caledonian Isles will have been completed. It's not clear from the website if and when the summer only Ardrossan - Campbeltown service will resume and , if so, what vessel will be used.

 

[EMU303]

What is the current timeline for the next 5 new ferries, which routes will they be used on, and which vessels will they replace? Thanks!

 

[43055]

What is the current timeline for the next 5 new ferries, which routes will they be used on, and which vessels will they replace? Thanks!

Glen Rosa is due the later part of this year and will operate opposite the Glen Sannox between Troon and Brodick.

Of the other 4 being built on Turkey, 2 are for Islay and 2 for the Uig services. This will allow the Finlaggan and Hebrides to go elsewhere possibly out of Oban replacing Isle of Lewis which is reportedly going to leave the fleet.

Also in the early stages of planning is a replacement for the Lord of the Isles.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I would put money on another Turkish pair being ordered sooner rather than later. Interesting that Isle of Lewis is being considered to be moved on, is this because there is still some resale value in her, whereas the majority of others would go for recycling?

 

[Russel]

Well done for starting a dedicated CalMac thread.

The plans for the summer Arran service are detailed on the Caledonian MacBrayne website.

My understanding is that from Friday 28 March 2025, Caledonian Isles will operate between Ardrossan and Brodick and Glen Sannox will sail between Troon and Brodick. Proposed timetables are on the website.

Obviously, this arrangement is based on the assumption that the various repairs to Caledonian Isles will have been completed. It's not clear from the website if and when the summer only Ardrossan - Campbeltown service will resume and , if so, what vessel will be used.

I'd seen a few comments on social media questioning weather Caledonian Isles will ever make a return to service, do we know what the issues are with her?

 

[Southsider]

I'd seen a few comments on social media questioning weather Caledonian Isles will ever make a return to service, do we know what the issues are with her?

It was corrosion of steel plates below the waterline that involves removal of the engines, this was carried out in Birkenhead. On her way back to the Clyde it was discovered that some of her frames were buckled, that’s what is being repaired now. I suspect if the frame issue had been known before the corrosion repairs had been carried out she may well have been scrapped. There is however a school of thought that the frames were damaged during the other repairs, I’m sure the lawyers will be looking closely.

Interesting that Isle of Lewis is being considered to be moved on, is this because there is still some resale value in her, whereas the majority of others would go for recycling?

There are a few factors contributing to this.

She cannot serve quite a few routes owing to the depth of water she requires.
The enclosed car deck limits capacity when carrying hazardous goods e.g. petrol.
Getting on a bit in years.

The latter two also apply to the Isle of Mull.

 

[thejuggler]

After 20+ years lots of issues will be coming to the fore and repair costs will be increasing, as above re metal thinning and buckled frames. Electrical controls will be obsolete, but rewiring a 30 year old ship isn't a job done in ten minutes.

You therefore enter the world of spending huge amounts of money on a vehicle which even after the repairs will have a limited lifespan.

 

[Russel]

It was corrosion of steel plates below the waterline that involves removal of the engines, this was carried out in Birkenhead. On her way back to the Clyde it was discovered that some of her frames were buckled, that’s what is being repaired now. I suspect if the frame issue had been known before the corrosion repairs had been carried out she may well have been scrapped. There is however a school of thought that the frames were damaged during the other repairs, I’m sure the lawyers will be looking closely.

What repairs would lead to buckled framework?

Given these presumably aren't cheap repairs, lets hope they get a few more years out of her!

The Glen Sannox is certainly the better looking Arran vessel though, it has to be said.

 

[Southsider]

What repairs would lead to buckled framework?

Given these presumably aren't cheap repairs, lets hope they get a few more years out of her!

The Glen Sannox is certainly the better looking Arran vessel though, it has to be said.

Vessel not properly supported in dry dock?

 

[Russel]

Vessel not properly supported in dry dock?

That would make sense.

 

[Blindtraveler]

It was corrosion of steel plates below the waterline that involves removal of the engines, this was carried out in Birkenhead. On her way back to the Clyde it was discovered that some of her frames were buckled, that’s what is being repaired now. I suspect if the frame issue had been known before the corrosion repairs had been carried out she may well have been scrapped. There is however a school of thought that the frames were damaged during the other repairs, I’m sure the lawyers will be looking closely.


There are a few factors contributing to this.

She cannot serve quite a few routes owing to the depth of water she requires.
The enclosed car deck limits capacity when carrying hazardous goods e.g. petrol.
Getting on a bit in years.

The latter two also apply to the Isle of Mull.

All makes sense. In short, however, they are going to need at least another three or more like four large vessels ordering pretty soon by the sound of it and the potential removal from service completely of Caledonian isles may see this happen more quickly, hard luck on the Northern isles who were hoping for money for two new mixed use ropax's to replace the freight ships, and the passenger trio are getting on a bit as well, so probably need looking at, particularly the two Aberdeen to Shetland vessels, which are now simply too small in the main tourist season.
Would the original poster object to this thread also encompassing northlink discussion, given that the tonnage is owned by cmal anyway and there probably isn't enough to talk about on a separate thread?

 

[Russel]

Would the original poster object to this thread also encompassing northlink discussion, given that the tonnage is owned by cmal anyway and there probably isn't enough to talk about on a separate thread?

Go for it, I'd forgotten about Northlink.

Thread title changed accordingly!

Another question from me, do we know what the second Cumbrae vessel will be this year or s it too early to say?

 

[Indigo Soup]

Am I correct in thinking that CalMac no longer offer passenger cabins?

The only CalMac ship still running to have been built with passenger cabins is LORD OF THE ISLES. I'm not sure when they were taken out of service, but I believe their location doesn't meet modern safety requirements.

She cannot serve quite a few routes owing to the depth of water she requires.
The enclosed car deck limits capacity when carrying hazardous goods e.g. petrol.
Getting on a bit in years.

The latter two also apply to the Isle of Mull.

One of the big problems CMAL has is that virtually every port is restricted in some way - this makes it very difficult to standardise the fleet, which would simplify maintenance and crew training.

All makes sense. In short, however, they are going to need at least another three or more like four large vessels ordering pretty soon by the sound of it and the potential removal from service completely of Caledonian isles may see this happen more quickly, hard luck on the Northern isles who were hoping for money for two new mixed use ropax's to replace the freight ships, and the passenger trio are getting on a bit as well, so probably need looking at, particularly the two Aberdeen to Shetland vessels, which are now simply too small in the main tourist season.

Replacements for the Northern Isles freight ships were next in line after the LORD OF THE ISLES replacement. From what I've seen, the intention was that they'd primarily be freight ro-ros, but capable of carrying some passengers to take the strain off the passenger ships. Replacement for the three passenger ships in due course would be based on this pair. I don't know if that's still the plan.

 

[47421]

re Calmac very nice recent BBC documentary on iplayer - mix of staff/customers/suppliers human interest & some on ships and challenges of keeping them operating https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/m001p4kw/island-crossings

 

[Russel]

If I was to travel over to Arran, would a foot passenger return allow me to go out via Ardrossan and back via Troon?

 

[43055]

One of the big problems CMAL has is that virtually every port is restricted in some way - this makes it very difficult to standardise the fleet, which would simplify maintenance and crew training.

Presumably one of the reasons the Glen Sannox and Rosa have slideable stern ramps so they can line up with most linkspans.

Isle of Arran is to be on the Mull and Colonsay routes for the next few weeks.

Customer Update - Coll-Tiree services | Caledonian MacBrayne

Read Caledonian MacBrayne's customer update on services to Coll-Tiree during winter 2024 - 2025.

www.calmac.co.uk

Services between Oban-Coll-Tiree on 20 January, 27 January and 3 February will be reinstated following the redeployment of MV Isle of Arran to support Mull services between Oban-Craignure. She will also cover Colonsay services on those dates.

This follows the successful entry into service of a new major vessel to the network – MV Glen Sannox, which has allowed us to bring forth benefits to other routes on our network.

 

[Cloud Strife]

The only CalMac ship still running to have been built with passenger cabins is LORD OF THE ISLES. I'm not sure when they were taken out of service, but I believe their location doesn't meet modern safety requirements.

As far as I know, the cabins could still be used, but there's really no use for them on the CalMac network. None of the routes really justify cabins, and CalMac isn't really set up to accommodate people staying overnight before an early morning ferry.

particularly the two Aberdeen to Shetland vessels, which are now simply too small in the main tourist season.

In fairness, the Northlink passenger ferries are in really good condition. They've been looked after properly, and were designed for the North run from the very beginning. For that reason, they're not really showing their age in the same way as many other ships, and there's no real reason to replace them anytime soon.

The Aberdeen vessels are at their maximum size, they can't fit anything else into the harbour. What's rather needed is to replace the freight ferries with new ferries with additional passenger capacity (perhaps cabins-only) to take the strain off the passenger boats. The freight situation is getting desperate for islanders, and without a substantial increase in capacity, things are likely to deteriorate further.

One potential option could be to take on the Isle of Lewis, as she was designed to deal with the freight demands of the Ullapool-Stornoway run. She has a decent amount of capacity and would be available cheaply, and as she was designed to deal with The Minch, she shouldn't have any problems with Aberdeen-Lerwick. Northlink would still need a pair of dedicated freight vessels, but having the Isle of Lewis providing additional passenger capacity could work in the medium term.

One of the big problems CMAL has is that virtually every port is restricted in some way - this makes it very difficult to standardise the fleet, which would simplify maintenance and crew training.

I was involved in some discussions around the time of the Caledonian MacBrayne tender back in 2006, and one thing that stood out to me from a mile was the ramshackle nature of the CalMac network. Everything was more or less just thrown together rather than being planned with the long term future at hand, and while the CalMac staff themselves do an admirable job, it's very painfully obvious that the Scottish Office didn't prepare well for the RORO era at all. The sensible thing to do from the 70s onwards should have to rebuild the major ports so that they would be able to accept vessels across the fleet, while also having the possibility to accommodate the small vessels as and when needed.

Instead, CMAL have ended up with a complete mess. They are trying to correct that course with things like the new Brodick terminal, but it's still nowhere near enough to meet the needs of a modern ferry network.

I'd seen a few comments on social media questioning weather Caledonian Isles will ever make a return to service, do we know what the issues are with her?

There are certainly voices on Arran saying that they don't think she'll ever serve Arran again, and that the more likely scenario is for her to be sent somewhere that won't be so demanding at sea, such as the Mull run. My source "in the know" says that the plan internally is to move heaven and earth to get her running throughout the summer on the Arran route, but that there are serious questions over whether it even makes sense to risk Caledonian Isles in Ardrossan. Either way, with Ardrossan no longer being usable once Glen Rosa is launched, it might even make more sense to simply move to Troon now and accept that Ardrossan is finished as a CalMac port.

Having said that, Troon is also not really ideal as a port, as the train timetables are terrible in comparison to Ardrossan. It essentially puts on an hour for the Brodick-Glasgow route, due to the lengthy transfer time between ship to train.

If I was to travel over to Arran, would a foot passenger return allow me to go out via Ardrossan and back via Troon?

Return fares are 2x the single fare, so there's no reason to really buy a foot passenger return.

 

[Indigo Soup]

As far as I know, the cabins could still be used, but there's really no use for them on the CalMac network. None of the routes really justify cabins, and CalMac isn't really set up to accommodate people staying overnight before an early morning ferry.

I'm really not sure why they bothered with them in the first place, even in the 1980s the justification must have been close to zero!

One potential option could be to take on the Isle of Lewis, as she was designed to deal with the freight demands of the Ullapool-Stornoway run. She has a decent amount of capacity and would be available cheaply, and as she was designed to deal with The Minch, she shouldn't have any problems with Aberdeen-Lerwick. Northlink would still need a pair of dedicated freight vessels, but having the Isle of Lewis providing additional passenger capacity could work in the medium term.

AFAIK Aberdeen-Lerwick is a bit of a stretch for the Stornoway boats, but they can cope with the Scrabster run and allow HAMNAVOE to cover Shetland.

Having said that, Troon is also not really ideal as a port, as the train timetables are terrible in comparison to Ardrossan. It essentially puts on an hour for the Brodick-Glasgow route, due to the lengthy transfer time between ship to train.

Even at Ardrossan, the rail connection is underused. CalMac operates primarily a RoRo operation and isn't particularly interested in better rail integration. I put the question forward years ago and was met with (in effect) 'we have a timetable, the railway should change it's service pattern to suit us'.

 

[Jan Mayen]

I had a cabin for a journey on a CalMac ferry into Ullapool. I'm glad I had it, and would have it again.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Re The northlink situation. I acknowledge that the passenger vessels have been correctly looked after and are in better condition. However, as I say, the problem remains that capacity on the Aberdeen orkney Shetland run in the summer is way below the demands placed on it. I appreciate Aberdeen harbour has restrictions, how practical would it be to build a pair of new vessels with a couple of additional decks, one of which could have a greater number of cabins than the current 120 or so offered on the two larger vessels?
A friend in Shetland said that they were pushing for the new freight vessels to have capacity for at least 50 to 75 cabins and the service be offered at a greatly reduced price for locals, particularly in the the busy tourist season and school holidays. When demand is through the roof and has come back extremely strongly since the pandemic




Moving further south and west, the situation with both trune and adroson as a rail head for Aaron services does need some attention paying to it, I'm not familiar with arrangements in troon, is there a dedicated shuttle service or regular local bus that serves both port and rail station? Or are passengers forced to walk or spend additional money on a taxi? If troon is to be the main? Aaron hub then something clearly needs looking at the service on that line is sufficiently frequent to not need too many timetable alterations, but the transfer arrangements may need attention

 

[Indigo Soup]

it, I'm not familiar with arrangements in troon, is there a dedicated shuttle service or regular local bus that serves both port and rail station? Or are passengers forced to walk or spend additional money on a taxi?

There is a shuttle bus. Unfortunately, Calmac view themselves primarily as a vehicle ferry operator, and any interface with rail services is a 'nice to have'. They're very clear that Scotrail 'Rail and Sail' tickets do not constitute any kind of ferry booking, and that you really ought to book your ferry tickets directly with them, thank you very much.

Great joined up thinking from two nationalised operators there.

The planned redevelopment of Mallaig harbour also threatens the rail/ferry interface, as the preferred option would move the ferry terminal from almost across the road from the station to the other side of the harbour industrial area. Not a long enough walk to justify a shuttle for most passengers, but something that ought to be thought about.

 

[Cloud Strife]

I'm really not sure why they bothered with them in the first place, even in the 1980s the justification must have been close to zero!

From what I've managed to put together, the original route was Oban-Coll-Tiree-Castlebay-Lochboisdale, which was long enough to justify having the cabins, especially as the hoist was still in use at the Coll and Tiree terminals at the time.

Even at Ardrossan, the rail connection is underused. CalMac operates primarily a RoRo operation and isn't particularly interested in better rail integration. I put the question forward years ago and was met with (in effect) 'we have a timetable, the railway should change it's service pattern to suit us'.

Not to mention the mess with the CalMac ticketing system that stopped allowing the sale of integrated tickets!

However, as I say, the problem remains that capacity on the Aberdeen orkney Shetland run in the summer is way below the demands placed on it. I appreciate Aberdeen harbour has restrictions, how practical would it be to build a pair of new vessels with a couple of additional decks, one of which could have a greater number of cabins than the current 120 or so offered on the two larger vessels?

I think the boats are pretty much at their limit sizewise, as any additional decks would mean not being able to access the Aberdeen terminal. One option could be to move the terminal closer to the sea, but this would be deeply unpopular with the islanders, especially given that Northlink are not very strict with check-in times for foot passengers.

A friend in Shetland said that they were pushing for the new freight vessels to have capacity for at least 50 to 75 cabins and the service be offered at a greatly reduced price for locals, particularly in the the busy tourist season and school holidays.

I actually think this could make sense: have cabins available for the islanders only, but very basic, no-frills couchette type accommodation on the freight boats. Most of them just want somewhere to get their head down overnight, nothing more.

 

[guilbert]

I'm really not sure why they bothered with them in the first place, even in the 1980s the justification must have been close to zero!

I've wondered that as well. The Oban to Castlebay or Lochboisdale routes are around 5 hours so it's possible they ran them at reduced speed overnight to arrive at a reasonable time in the morning. That's just speculation though.

 

[Blindtraveler]

There is a shuttle bus. Unfortunately, Calmac view themselves primarily as a vehicle ferry operator, and any interface with rail services is a 'nice to have'. They're very clear that Scotrail 'Rail and Sail' tickets do not constitute any kind of ferry booking, and that you really ought to book your ferry tickets directly with them, thank you very much.

Great joined up thinking from two nationalised operators there.

The planned redevelopment of Mallaig harbour also threatens the rail/ferry interface, as the preferred option would move the ferry terminal from almost across the road from the station to the other side of the harbour industrial area. Not a long enough walk to justify a shuttle for most passengers, but something that ought to be thought about.

And people say nationalisation is the answer to all transportation ills. I hadn't heard about the potential goings on in Malay, but sounds potentially very concerning. Especially in a location where passengers with reduced Mobility or heavy luggage would be forced to rely on a no doubt scant local taxi offering

From what I've managed to put together, the original route was Oban-Coll-Tiree-Castlebay-Lochboisdale, which was long enough to justify having the cabins, especially as the hoist was still in use at the Coll and Tiree terminals at the time.



Not to mention the mess with the CalMac ticketing system that stopped allowing the sale of integrated tickets!



I think the boats are pretty much at their limit sizewise, as any additional decks would mean not being able to access the Aberdeen terminal. One option could be to move the terminal closer to the sea, but this would be deeply unpopular with the islanders, especially given that Northlink are not very strict with check-in times for foot passengers.



I actually think this could make sense: have cabins available for the islanders only, but very basic, no-frills couchette type accommodation on the freight boats. Most of them just want somewhere to get their head down overnight, nothing more.

You could also bring back the cabin share scheme for some of those, but it wouldn't be rocket science as you say to have a very basic cabin interior in single, twin and family size configuration, as long as everyone has a bed and a USB port and obviously the basic toilet and ensuite shower, doesn't have to be luxuriously appointed. Appointed just functional and easy to clean, maintain and use think easy hotel or Ibis budget, but at

 

[Indigo Soup]

From what I've managed to put together, the original route was Oban-Coll-Tiree-Castlebay-Lochboisdale, which was long enough to justify having the cabins, especially as the hoist was still in use at the Coll and Tiree terminals at the time.

I suppose the run to Oban was long enough that it might have looked sensible, though I was under the impression the Inner Isles Mail route was split into Oban-Coll-Tiree and Oban-Castlebay-Lochboisdale in the 1970s which would save time.

On the Stornoway run, cabins would definitely have stopped being useful with the move from Mallaig to Ullapool in 1973.

Especially in a location where passengers with reduced Mobility or heavy luggage would be forced to rely on a no doubt scant local taxi offering

I'm not sure you'd find many taxis willing to take you a quarter of a mile! If it was sensibly integrated, one of those nice electric golf carts you see at airports and big stations would do the trick. And Mallaig is probably one of the only ports where they really can't argue that everyone needs a car to get around when they're on the islands - tourists aren't allowed to bring their own vehicles to the Small Isles!

The other route is Arran, where there's a decent amount of foot traffic. But even there, it isn't all that much: Ardrossan Harbour station only sees about 270 passengers a day, compared to a capacity of 850 passengers on just one sailing of one of the new ferries. Some foot passengers presumably arrive by bus or taxi, but on the other hand presumably not everyone using that station is using the ferry.

 

[scotLAN]

The only CalMac ship still running to have been built with passenger cabins is LORD OF THE ISLES. I'm not sure when they were taken out of service, but I believe their location doesn't meet modern safety requirements

The cabins were located under the car deck, consisting of a dozen or so en-suite twin berths. They were still being advertised in 2000, and I booked one in February that year on a work visit to Tiree after arriving on the evening train into Oban. Climbing a very steep gangway up to the vessel as the wind blew down the railway pier, I was met with an unsurprisingly deserted ship. After wandering round I found a couple of crew having a cup of tea in the lounge - they were surprised to see me and obviously hadn't had the advanced booking through from the office - that said, i was welcomed onboard and shown downstairs to one of the made-up cabins (very comfy they were too!). I still had to pick up my ticket the following morning, and it was fun wandering down the gangway to purchase it, and then bypassing the folk waiting ashore to head back to my cabin Further sleep was hard to come by as the noise of the vehicles loading above was fairly deafening - made up for by a glorious calmac fry-up though!

from recollection they stopped offering cabins soon after so was chuffed it was something i'd managed to do - it should be noted that the cabins on most calmac ships were only ever intended as overnight accommodation prior to the vessel's first sailing of the day (rather than being for use during any crossing).