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Castlethorpe on the WCML

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MarkWi72

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Earlier this evening I passed through Castlethorpe. It still has the layout of the old station and could easily be used? When did it close - 1960s? It could still be used (I bet there's a decent catchment of people who would use it) and has there been any plans or campaigns to re-open?
Or would it create pathing problems with an extra stop?
 
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Mcr Warrior

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Castlethorpe station (in Buckinghamshire) closed September 1964.

Was on the WCML, a couple of miles or so to the North of Wolverton, or five miles from Milton Keynes Central.

Castlethorpe village has a population of c. 1,000, although there will obviously be more folk than that, living a little further afield, but still fairly nearby.
 

Bald Rick

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Pathing could be an issue. But the main issue is extending journey times by 4 minutes for every passenger between Northampton and the south, the disbenefit of which would be far, far higher than the benefit to the (relatively) few passengers who would use it.

The catchment area is fairly limited - anywhere to the south has Wolverton relatively near, and of course most people in that neck of the woods who catch a train drive to MK. Whilst a reopened Csstlehorpe would undoubtedly attract some new to rail business, I can’t see it being very much.

Finding the £20m or so to build it (assuming a 2 platform station is ok, with no service during a slow line block) is achievable of course!
 

Russel

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I did a canal boat holiday on the Grand Union canal about a decade ago and stopped overnight in Castlethorpe, I had no idea it ever had a station!
 

70014IronDuke

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I did a canal boat holiday on the Grand Union canal about a decade ago and stopped overnight in Castlethorpe, I had no idea it ever had a station!
Not only did it have a station, it had a set of water troughs - perhaps even fed from GU canal? (Or is my memory gone awry?)
 

jfollows

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There was also a maroon running-in board on one of the disused platforms for many years (into the 1990s or later?) following the station's closure, on the slow line platforms from memory, there is probably a picture somewhere ......
 

SargeNpton

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There was also a maroon running-in board on one of the disused platforms for many years (into the 1990s or later?) following the station's closure, on the slow line platforms from memory, there is probably a picture somewhere ......
That board was not on the platforms but on the Network Rail access point adjacent to the Up Slow. At the time there was a local campaign for the station to be re-opened. See last entry on this page, with a picture of the board...


"Give us back our station" is the resounding plea from campaigning Castlethorpe councillors.
The railway station was shut 15 years ago as part of the massive British Rail cost-saving exercise.
But the parish council has made steps to reopen it by replacing the original station sign.
Council chairman Bert Tapp said " We want to re-open the station for a number of reasons.

As for the water troughs; not fed from the canal but from a couple of ponds
 

zwk500

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If you were to reopen any station between Milton Keynes and Northampton it would be Roade, not Castlethorpe. However the problem there is that it is north of Hanslope Junction and so couldn't be served by trains to/from Northampton when the loop is closed for engineering works.

It could still be used (I bet there's a decent catchment of people who would use it) and has there been any plans or campaigns to re-open?
The catchment is actually quite small - it wouldn't get a big car park and once you've driven from Roade that far you'd just continue on to MK. It's really only Castlethorpe (pop. 1,000), Hanslope (2,200), and possibly Hartwell (1,800) that are within the catchment of such a station - and given that 80% of that catchment will need to drive to reach the station, the amount of traffic it would generate is really quite small.

The only way Castlethorpe station would be viable again is a major expansion of housing development centred on the village, which I'm sure would go down very well with the locals.
 
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A0

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If you were to reopen any station between Milton Keynes and Northampton it would be Roade, not Castlethorpe. However the problem there is that it is north of Hanslope Junction and so couldn't be served by trains to/from Northampton when the loop is closed for engineering works.


The catchment is actually quite small - it wouldn't get a big car park and once you've driven from Roade that far you'd just continue on to MK. It's really only Castlethorpe (pop. 1,000), Hanslope (2,200), and possibly Hartwell (1,800) that are within the catchment of such a station - and given that 80% of that catchment will need to drive to reach the station, the amount of traffic it would generate is really quite small.

The only way Castlethorpe station would be viable again is a major expansion of housing development centred on the village, which I'm sure would go down very well with the locals.

+1 on Roade. Makes far more sense - it's bigger than Castlethorpe, it's also closer and therefore more convenient for Towcester.
 

MarkWi72

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If Roade, would another junction be needed , in case both slow and fast lines would be required?
 

SargeNpton

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If Roade, would another junction be needed , in case both slow and fast lines would be required?
When Northants County Council wanted to reopen Roade, 25-30 years ago, its idea was just for platforms on the slow, but BR (or Railtrack) also wanted platforms on the fast lines.

The idea behind that was that if the Northampton Loop was closed then then Euston-Birmingham suburban services could stop at Roade on the fast line for buses to Northampton, replacing the current Milton Keynes Central-Northampton buses.

One of the stumbling blocks was that the council wasn't prepared to put up enough funding for the additional platforms.
 

zwk500

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If Roade, would another junction be needed , in case both slow and fast lines would be required?
Not necessarily, if you were prepared to accept not serving Roade during possessions or disruption. It would be a mirror image of Long Buckby in that case. I personally would look for an additional set of crossovers allowing Fast Line-Northampton moves but not putting in Weedon-Slow line crossovers, unless you were to abolish Hanslope Junction completely.
The idea behind that was that if the Northampton Loop was closed then then Euston-Birmingham suburban services could stop at Roade on the fast line for buses to Northampton, replacing the current Milton Keynes Central-Northampton buses.
This would be an interesting idea, especially now that the Roade Bypass is on the way. As long as you can get enough space to marshal the buses properly (which looks reasonably possible next to the station site).
 

The Planner

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When Northants County Council wanted to reopen Roade, 25-30 years ago, its idea was just for platforms on the slow, but BR (or Railtrack) also wanted platforms on the fast lines.

The idea behind that was that if the Northampton Loop was closed then then Euston-Birmingham suburban services could stop at Roade on the fast line for buses to Northampton, replacing the current Milton Keynes Central-Northampton buses.

One of the stumbling blocks was that the council wasn't prepared to put up enough funding for the additional platforms.
The Euston Birmingham slows never get diverted anyway, so its moot. The only LNWR train that would run is the Crewe.
 

AJDesiro

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778

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If you were to reopen any station between Milton Keynes and Northampton it would be Roade, not Castlethorpe. However the problem there is that it is north of Hanslope Junction and so couldn't be served by trains to/from Northampton when the loop is closed for engineering works.


The catchment is actually quite small - it wouldn't get a big car park and once you've driven from Roade that far you'd just continue on to MK. It's really only Castlethorpe (pop. 1,000), Hanslope (2,200), and possibly Hartwell (1,800) that are within the catchment of such a station - and given that 80% of that catchment will need to drive to reach the station, the amount of traffic it would generate is really quite small.

The only way Castlethorpe station would be viable again is a major expansion of housing development centred on the village, which I'm sure would go down very well with the locals.
If Castlethorpe did get reopened (very unlikely), would it attract more passenger than Cheddington station does now? I am not sure Cheddington is any better in terms of its catchment area.
 

MarkWi72

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Not necessarily, if you were prepared to accept not serving Roade during possessions or disruption. It would be a mirror image of Long Buckby in that case. I personally would look for an additional set of crossovers allowing Fast Line-Northampton moves but not putting in Weedon-Slow line crossovers, unless you were to abolish Hanslope Junction completely.

This would be an interesting idea, especially now that the Roade Bypass is on the way. As long as you can get enough space to marshal the buses properly (which looks reasonably possible next to the station site).
Why not add crossovers and keep Hanslope?
 

zwk500

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If Castlethorpe did get reopened (very unlikely), would it attract more passenger than Cheddington station does now? I am not sure Cheddington is any better in terms of its catchment area.
By a very slim margin - there are actually houses at Castlethorpe.
Why not add crossovers and keep Hanslope?
Largely maintenance costs and the performance risk of failure. My guesstimate is that the best option operationally would be to remove Hanslope completely and install both sets of crossovers north of Roade, but that the costs of the intervention at Hanslope are greater than the savings so the question is whether or not you need to allow Northampton trains out onto the fasts at Roade, or if the risk of being trapped behind a stopper between Roade and Hanslope is low enough that you just accept dropping Roade out of the schedules when Northampton is closed.

Another factor is that the timetable would also need adjusting as the trains would now be crossing about 2-5 minutes further north, and that affects any 'paired' moves there may be, although IIRC that's not really a big issue for Hanslope.
 

Bevan Price

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Pathing could be an issue. But the main issue is extending journey times by 4 minutes for every passenger between Northampton and the south, the disbenefit of which would be far, far higher than the benefit to the (relatively) few passengers who would use it.

The catchment area is fairly limited - anywhere to the south has Wolverton relatively near, and of course most people in that neck of the woods who catch a train drive to MK. Whilst a reopened Csstlehorpe would undoubtedly attract some new to rail business, I can’t see it being very much.

Finding the £20m or so to build it (assuming a 2 platform station is ok, with no service during a slow line block) is achievable of course!
Pathing should not be a problem. With some Northampton stops lasting 11 minutes (southbound) or 14 minutes (northbound0, at first sight, all you need to do is to reduce the duration of Northampton stops.
 

MarkWi72

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Pathing should not be a problem. With some Northampton stops lasting 11 minutes (southbound) or 14 minutes (northbound0, at first sight, all you need to do is to reduce the duration of Northampton stops.
Are these lengthy stops at Northampton, a pathing issue? Why the length of time? I was recently on a NS- Euston which ran 8 minutes late, but got back on time with a brief stop at Northampton.
 

Philip

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If you were to reopen any station between Milton Keynes and Northampton it would be Roade, not Castlethorpe. However the problem there is that it is north of Hanslope Junction and so couldn't be served by trains to/from Northampton when the loop is closed for engineering works.

What about Weedon Bec? That's a fairly sizeable village and the railway runs through the middle of it.
Pathing could be an issue. But the main issue is extending journey times by 4 minutes for every passenger between Northampton and the south, the disbenefit of which would be far, far higher than the benefit to the (relatively) few passengers who would use it.

Why is an extra 4 minutes of journey time such a big issue (aside from the possible effects on pathing)?
 

SCDR_WMR

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Are these lengthy stops at Northampton, a pathing issue? Why the length of time? I was recently on a NS- Euston which ran 8 minutes late, but got back on time with a brief stop at Northampton.
Pathing, cleaning, tanking and crew changeovers on most services through Northampton
 

The Planner

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They were diverted at a frequency of roughly 1tph last Sunday, here's just one example of one of the services: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:P69430/2023-07-16/detailed

Presumably due to the reduced number of trains using Weedon thanks to the Trent Valley works also taking place.
Wow, normally they don't consider it. Presumably as the Crewe cannot run it kept the journey time down to the Trent Valley stations.
EDIT: Northampton was shut on Sunday so that is why that happened.

Are these lengthy stops at Northampton, a pathing issue? Why the length of time? I was recently on a NS- Euston which ran 8 minutes late, but got back on time with a brief stop at Northampton.
You are arguably trying to join two services together that have to hit a slot on the WCML south of Milton Keynes and again between Coventry and New St.

Pathing should not be a problem. With some Northampton stops lasting 11 minutes (southbound) or 14 minutes (northbound0, at first sight, all you need to do is to reduce the duration of Northampton stops.
They do have a tendency to get freight overtaking when at Northampton, but it shouldn't be a show stopper.
 
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A0

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Pathing could be an issue. But the main issue is extending journey times by 4 minutes for every passenger between Northampton and the south, the disbenefit of which would be far, far higher than the benefit to the (relatively) few passengers who would use it.

The catchment area is fairly limited - anywhere to the south has Wolverton relatively near, and of course most people in that neck of the woods who catch a train drive to MK. Whilst a reopened Csstlehorpe would undoubtedly attract some new to rail business, I can’t see it being very much.

Finding the £20m or so to build it (assuming a 2 platform station is ok, with no service during a slow line block) is achievable of course!

Bit in bold - I wouldn't worry about that particularly, it's been fairly normal to screw Northampton's journey times over the last 15 or so years, so what difference is another 4 minutes going to make ?

We're down to 2tph - the Birmingham services are much slower than they were 20 years ago, the Euston ones aren't any better, the Crewe services have been introduced and removed from Northampton, we're now in the laughable situation where both Rugby and Nuneaton have quicker journeys to London than Northampton does. So I really wouldn't worry about screwing up Northampton's journeys, the rail industry hasn't been bothered about that for the past 2 decades.
 

zwk500

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What about Weedon Bec? That's a fairly sizeable village and the railway runs through the middle of it.
Certainly not until HS2 takes the fast traffic away, and even then there'll be enough legacy traffic that stopping a train in the middle of the fast lines will burn through capacity like nobody's business.
 

A0

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What about Weedon Bec? That's a fairly sizeable village and the railway runs through the middle of it.


Why is an extra 4 minutes of journey time such a big issue (aside from the possible effects on pathing)?

It's not a "fairly sizeable" village - population is under 3000. Compare that with Long Buckby at 4,500.

It's the same size as Roade but with a smaller catchment area. And it's on the fast lines, so the impact of stopping on there is much greater.
 

Bald Rick

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Why is an extra 4 minutes of journey time such a big issue (aside from the possible effects on pathing)?

This is socio-economics. Every minute counts to every individual. The value of each minute varies by individual, so in transport assessment an average value is taken.

Northampton had over 3m passengers per year pre Covid, and is probably in the region of 2.5m now. At a guess, 80% - 2m - of them are heading south. That’s 8m minutes a year lost (collectively) by those travellers. Add in those travelling that way from Long Buckby, Rugby, and other places and 10m minutes is a reasonable estimate.

Assuming a value of time of £10/hr, (values in the TAG data book vary between £4.54 and £29.18 depending on the reason for travelling), that’s a loss to society of £1.67m a year. This would be offset by the gain in journey time by those choosing to use the new station. But it would be very, very unlikely to generate sufficient traffic with Sufficient benefit to make it net worthwhile: for example…

Castlethorpe has a population of just over 1,000, add in Hanslope and Hartwell and it’s about 4,000. Say 200 of these people will use the train frequently, generating 60,000 rail trips a year (an optimistic estimate), mostly driving to MK. If they all switched to Castlethorpe, these people would would save perhaps 10 minutes each on average - collectively 600k mins. Then assume a similar number of people transfer from other modes to rail, ie generated rail traffic, and also save 10 minutes each on average, ie another 600k minutes. That’s a total of 1.2m minutes saved pa. Now let’s say there’s lots of housebuilding and the population doubles; that’s 2.4m minutes saved. That is still only a quarter of the minutes lost by those already travelling, ie society is 7.6m minutes worse off.

Socio-economic assessments are much more complex than this in real assessments, but I hope this explains in simple terms.
 
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