Cathcart Circle Services

[clc]

The circle has a 1tph service in each direction. Would it not be more useful to divert the clockwise service to Neilston and the anti clockwise service to Newton? That way the Neilston and Newton branches would get an increase in frequency to 3tph without requiring any additional capacity at Central. Stations on the circle would maintain their current frequency on the most direct route to Central, though passengers would lose the option to go the long way round, which would be more of an issue on the western half with its lower frequency. Any thoughts?

 

[Altnabreac]

I think it would be generally good for Neilston and Newton passengers (which includes me) but it would cause several problems:

Two of the busier stations on the southside of Glasgow are Pollokshaws East and Langside. Pollokshaws East in particular is the main station for the Shawlands area (confusingly when there is also a Shawlands station!). At present the Cathcart circle means these two stations have a reasonably spaced 3tph service to Glasgow Central. This proposal would reduce that to 2tph

As can be seen from the Station Usage figures, Mount Florida is a big trip generator with plenty of travel to the station as well as from it. The presence of the new Victoria Infirmary, Glasgow Clyde College - Langside Campus and Hampden Park mean plenty of people are heading to Mount Florida as well as travelling from it. This proposal would remove the service for people travelling to Mount Florida from Cathcart circle west stations and going via Glasgow Central would be a big detour.

It also prevents journeys from the Neilston line to Cathcart Circle west stations (which I will actually be doing tonight to get to Pollokshaws East), this may not be a huge trip generator but it is reducing opportunities.

Overall I'd rather see an extra Newton service via Shawlands to give 2tph on that corridor and an hourly semi fast to Neilston. They would of course need more Glasgow Central capacity but my view has always been a radical intervention is needed on that front anyway.

 

[Altnabreac]

South Glasgow lines station usage numbers for reference:

Mount Florida 1,194,096
Barrhead 688,976
Queen's Park (Glasgow) 686,606
Crossmyloof 674,688
Cathcart 586,512
Newton 584,522
Clarkston 553,288
Patterton 439,290
Neilston 407,772
Pollokshields East 397,112
Muirend 375,162
Pollokshaws East 368,480
Giffnock 341,126
Crosshill 324,408
Whitecraigs 304,278
Burnside 270,746
Thornliebank 254,354
Langside 247,806
Williamwood 242,370
Croftfoot 219,538
King's Park 194,294
Pollokshields West 189,872
Busby 167,530
Shawlands 159,628
Maxwell Park 156,180
Pollokshaws West 147,574
Priesthill & Darnley 137,668
Nitshill 107,930
Kirkhill 76,068
Kennishead 62,120

 

[route101]

Surprised how busy Langside is . The western side of the circle is quieter i think. Also surprised that Pollokshaws West is above Busby .

 

[clc]

Yes agree about Langside, I’m surprised it’s busier than Williamwood.

I suppose the even spacing of services on the western half does make going the long way round to Central more likely even if it is only 1tph. Journey times to Central are as follows:-

Cathcart: 3tph - 13 mins; 1tph - 17 mins

Langside: 2tph - 15 mins; 1tph - 16 mins

Pollokshaws East: 2tph - 13 mins; 1tph - 18 mins

Shawlands: 2tph - 11 mins; 1tph - 19 mins

Maxwell Park: 2tph - 9 mins; 1tph - 21 mins

Pollokshields West: 2tph - 7 mins; 1tph - 23 mins

It would be interesting to know what percentage of passengers on the western half take the longer route, how many are travelling to intermediate stations on the eastern half and how many additional passengers would be generated on the Newton and Neilston branches if the 2tph used by the circle went to these destinations instead, factoring in the new station at Auckenback due to open in 2019.

If diverting to Neilston and Newton was the best use of existing capacity I would support that. Once the terminal capacity was increased you could reinstate circle services.

 

[Kite159]

I wonder if Crossmyloof is popular for being the last station on the East Kilbride line for those dodgy characters claiming to have travelled from there when purchasing tickets on the gateline at Glasgow Central

 

[route101]

I wonder if Crossmyloof is popular for being the last station on the East Kilbride line for those dodgy characters claiming to have travelled from there when purchasing tickets on the gateline at Glasgow Central

See it all the time , the gateline staff must know but must sell the ticket that has been asked .

 

[Altnabreac]

Here's a comparison of the different lines with the stations grouped together to show service frequency in comparison to usage:

GBK inner suburban (Crossmyloof - Pollokshaws West)
822,262 total - 400k per station - 4tph
Eest Kilbride branch
3,191,632 450k per station - 2tph
GBK outer suburban (Kennishead - Nitshill)
307,718 100k per station - 2tph
Barrhead
688,976 700k per station - 3tph
GBK East Ayrshire (Dunlop - Kilmaurs)
520,682 175k per station - 2tph
Kilmarnock
593,410 600k per station - 2tph
Cathcart Circle West (Pollokshields West - Langside)
1,121,966 225k per station - 2-3 tph
Cathcart Circle East (Pollokshields East - Cathcart)
3,188,734 650k per station - 4tph
Kings Park - Kirkhill
760,646 200k per station - 2tph
Newton
584,522 600k per station - 6tph
Neilston outer (Muirend - Neilston)
1,768,872 350k per station - 2tph

What that shows is that there probably isn't any justification for an enhancement to the Newton branch.

Increased frequency on the East Kilbride branch really needs to be the priority, along with electrification and more double track.

A 3rd hourly Kilmarnock service would also allow Barrhead to gain a 4tph service which it deserves.

Cathcart is a busy station that should stay at 4tph (would fall to 3tph if Cathcart circle services were diverted).

Actually the best option here may be to increase Cathcart Circle frequency to 2tph, allow all Newton services to run via Mount Florida and leave Neilston at 2tph with all services calling Mount Florida and skip stopping Cathcart, Crosshill, Queen's Park and Pollokshields East.

That would give Mount Florida 6tph, other Cathcart circle east stations 5tph, Cathcart circle west stations 3-4tph and Neilston stations 2tph but faster.

 

[clc]

Actually the best option here may be to increase Cathcart Circle frequency to 2tph, allow all Newton services to run via Mount Florida and leave Neilston at 2tph with all services calling Mount Florida and skip stopping Cathcart, Crosshill, Queen's Park and Pollokshields East.

That would give Mount Florida 6tph, other Cathcart circle east stations 5tph, Cathcart circle west stations 3-4tph and Neilston stations 2tph but faster.

That would be an overalI increase of 2tph going in and out of Central.

If you did a usage/tph ranking for each of the sections then Neilston Outer (1,768,872 / 2tph) would rank much higher than CathcartCircle West (1,121,966 / 2-3 tph) so on that basis Neilston Outer would seem more deserving of any extra services being operated.

I do like the idea of more Neilston services being limited stop though (the evening express is the one I always go for if possible).

 

[Altnabreac]

That would be an overalI increase of 2tph going in and out of Central.

If you did a usage/tph ranking for each of the sections then Neilston Outer (1,768,872 / 2tph) would rank much higher than CathcartCircle West (1,121,966 / 2-3 tph) so on that basis Neilston Outer would seem more deserving of any extra services being operated.

I do like the idea of more Neilston services being limited stop though (the evening express is the one I always go for if possible).

Yes, none of these options are really possible, except with increased capacity at Central. I was going for an option that increased frequency at Cathcart Circle east stations while decreasing journey times for Newton and Neilston.

The ideal service is obviously the 2043 spec in the Scotland Route Study that has 4tph to both Newton and Neilston and 2tph Cathcart Circle but that is a 6tph increase at Central so even less likely to happen soon.

An intermediate option would be 4tph Neilston, 2tph Cathcart Circle and 2tph Newton. That would give at least a 4tph service to all stations except Kings Park, Croftfoot, Burnside and Kirkhill.

 

[clc]

I wonder how the Muirhouse Corridor could cope with future demand. Currently you have 11tph funnelling onto the double track north of Pollokshields East but that would increase to 21tph under the 2043 spec. I doubt it could handle that.

 

[Mag_seven]

.Would it not be more useful to divert the clockwise service to Neilston and the anti clockwise service to Newton?

The Cathcart Circle is a South Side institution - leave it alone.

 

[route101]

The Cathcart Circle is a South Side institution - leave it alone.

Its only one train an hour and a loop .

 

[adrock1976]

There have been various suggestions over the years by the City Council (when it was run by New Labour, of which they were not new at all, and were most certainly not Labour) to bring back trams by converting the Cathcart line, with street running to Queen Street. These proposals normally surfaced when it was time to canvass for votes in an election campaign.

If Glasgow decides to bring back trams, a new build route could be Queen Street - Central Station - Broomielaw - Clyde Arc Bridge - Pacific Quay - Govan Cross - Southern General Hospital - Braehead Centre - Renfrew Cross - Abbotsinch for Airport - Paisley Gilmour Street - Paisley Cross - Paisley Canal - Royal Alexandra Hospital.

Greater Manchester Passenger Transport Executive could have some input, as they seem to be the experts in designing and implementing tram systems.

 

[clc]

My preference for a tram line would be the north bank option mentioned in the STPR which would cross the river at Whiteinch:

...Broomielaw - SEC - Riverside Museum - Glasgow Harbour - QE Hospital....

Pacific Quay would be a 5 minute walk from the SEC tram stop via the pedestrian bridges. Central and east Govan is already served by the subway, west Govan would be served by the hospital tram stop.

A north bank route would serve the main trip generators, have loads of regeneration potential and be fairly rapid between Broomielaw and the hospital.

 

[clc]

Getting back on topic, if you look at where the major housing developments are going to be built in the next few years you see that most are on the Cathcart East and Neilston Outer corridors:

Old Victoria Infirmary site (Mount Florida) - 400 homes.
Old Scottish Power site (Mount Florida/Cathcart) - 400 homes.
Auchenback (new station) - 1000 new homes plus existing latent demand.
Maidenhill (Patterton park and ride) - 800 homes
Plus hundreds more in smaller sites around Newton Mearns.

There’s nothing at all planned that would be served by the Cathcart West stations that I can think of.

Increasing congestion on the M77 will also increase demand for rail travel in East Renfrewshire.

The case for increasing frequency on the Neilston line is getting stronger all the time.

 

[Southsider]

I wonder if Crossmyloof is popular for being the last station on the East Kilbride line for those dodgy characters claiming to have travelled from there when purchasing tickets on the gateline at Glasgow Central

Another common dodge on these lines is to buy a single from Williamwood to Clarkston (or vice versa). Because of their close proximity but on separate lines it is effectively a return to Glasgow Central. Given the affluence of the area, fur coat and no knickers springs to mind!

 

[route101]

Another common dodge on these lines is to buy a single from Williamwood to Clarkston (or vice versa). Because of their close proximity but on separate lines it is effectively a return to Glasgow Central. Given the affluence of the area, fur coat and no knickers springs to mind!

Used to know someone that bought that , not to dodge the fare but because he actually travelled that way

 

[clc]

The same loophole exists between quite a few stations in south Glasgow: Williamwood-Giffnock, Clarkston-Muirend, Giffnock-Muirend, Pollokshaws West-Shawlands, Dumbreck-Maxwell Park, Crossmyloof-Maxwell Park, Pollokshaws West-Pollokshaws East.

 

[Southsider]

Used to know someone that bought that , not to dodge the fare but because he actually travelled that way

Assuming no physical impairment he could walk it in less than a quarter of the time the train takes. Fur coat and no y-fronts in this case!

 

[route101]

Assuming no physical impairment he could walk it in less than a quarter of the time the train takes. Fur coat and no y-fronts in this case!

He lived around same distance to both , he would get on at Clarkston to meet me and return home on the neilston service

 

[FS-2-11]

The circle has a 1tph service in each direction.

The Circle is one of the few services in Glasgow that's had a downgrade in frequency in recent times. Up until (I think?) the late 1980s, the service pattern was:

• 2tph Inner Circle
• 2tph Outer Circle
• 2tph Neilston
• 2tph Newton via Queens Park
• 2tph Kirkhill via Maxwell Park (Kirkhill had a turnback facility, probably removed around the time of the first Newton remodelling)

That pattern was, if memory serves, prior to the industrial action over the introduction of DOO, after which the reduced service intervals on strike days were deemed sufficient for demand generally, and made permanent.

 

[clc]

[QUOTE="Altnabreac, post: South Glasgow lines station usage numbers for reference:

Mount Florida 1,194,096 1,312,436
Barrhead 688,976
Queen's Park (Glasgow) 686,606 766,474
Crossmyloof 674,688
Cathcart 586,512 658,616
Newton 584,522 669,530
Clarkston 553,288
Patterton 439,290 493,536
Neilston 407,772 376,586
Pollokshields East 397,112 458,626
Muirend 375,162 402,334
Pollokshaws East 368,480 451,432
Giffnock 341,126
Crosshill 324,408 351,988
Whitecraigs 304,278 322,500
Burnside 270,746 282,282
Thornliebank 254,354
Langside 247,806 296,160
Williamwood 242,370 266,250
Croftfoot 219,538 256,420
King's Park 194,294 230,862
Pollokshields West 189,872 208,090
Busby 167,530
Shawlands 159,628 181,334
Maxwell Park 156,180 175,060
Pollokshaws West 147,574
Priesthill & Darnley 137,668
Nitshill 107,930
Kirkhill 76,068 69,104
Kennishead 62,120[/QUOTE]

For anyone interested in the change in passenger numbers in the last couple of years I’ve added the latest figures for the Cathcart lines stations above.

Good growth at most stations with only Neilston and Kirkhill going against trend.

While East Kilbride remains the priority for an increase in frequency I wonder if we are now at the point where 3tph on the Neilston line could be justified?

 

[railjock]

Not sure if this is the right forum but why is the Cathcart Circle viable when the Edinburgh Suburban railway ( also a circle ) is not? I should mention that I have limited knowledge of Glasgow geography.

 

[Altnabreac]

Not sure if this is the right forum but why is the Cathcart Circle viable when the Edinburgh Suburban railway ( also a circle ) is not? I should mention that I have limited knowledge of Glasgow geography.

Cathcart circle is really two services running north south that are operationally linked together to run as a circle on some services. The route to Glasgow Central is much more direct and fast than the route from South Sub to Waverley and so rail is faster than bus on this corridor.

For example
Pollokshaws East - Glasgow Central is 3.3 miles by rail, 3.1 miles by road.
Mount Florida - Glasgow Central is 2.8 miles by rail, 2.6 miles by road

Morningside - Waverley 3.8 miles by rail, 2.3 miles by road
Cameron Toll - Waverley 6.6 miles by rail 2.1 miles by road

So you can see Cathcart circle the distances are comparable between rail and road whereas on the South Sub the distances by rail are 2-3 times further so rail will struggle to be competitive on price and journey time.

 

[railjock]

Cathcart circle is really two services running north south that are operationally linked together to run as a circle on some services. The route to Glasgow Central is much more direct and fast than the route from South Sub to Waverley and so rail is faster than bus on this corridor.

For example
Pollokshaws East - Glasgow Central is 3.3 miles by rail, 3.1 miles by road.
Mount Florida - Glasgow Central is 2.8 miles by rail, 2.6 miles by road

Morningside - Waverley 3.8 miles by rail, 2.3 miles by road
Cameron Toll - Waverley 6.6 miles by rail 2.1 miles by road

So you can see Cathcart circle the distances are comparable between rail and road whereas on the South Sub the distances by rail are 2-3 times further so rail will struggle to be competitive on price and journey time.

Thanks.

 

[route101]

[QUOTE="Altnabreac, post: South Glasgow lines station usage numbers for reference:

Mount Florida 1,194,096 1,312,436
Barrhead 688,976
Queen's Park (Glasgow) 686,606 766,474
Crossmyloof 674,688
Cathcart 586,512 658,616
Newton 584,522 669,530
Clarkston 553,288
Patterton 439,290 493,536
Neilston 407,772 376,586
Pollokshields East 397,112 458,626
Muirend 375,162 402,334
Pollokshaws East 368,480 451,432
Giffnock 341,126
Crosshill 324,408 351,988
Whitecraigs 304,278 322,500
Burnside 270,746 282,282
Thornliebank 254,354
Langside 247,806 296,160
Williamwood 242,370 266,250
Croftfoot 219,538 256,420
King's Park 194,294 230,862
Pollokshields West 189,872 208,090
Busby 167,530
Shawlands 159,628 181,334
Maxwell Park 156,180 175,060
Pollokshaws West 147,574
Priesthill & Darnley 137,668
Nitshill 107,930
Kirkhill 76,068 69,104
Kennishead 62,120

For anyone interested in the change in passenger numbers in the last couple of years I’ve added the latest figures for the Cathcart lines stations above.

Good growth at most stations with only Neilston and Kirkhill going against trend.

While East Kilbride remains the priority for an increase in frequency I wonder if we are now at the point where 3tph on the Neilston line could be justified?[/QUOTE]

Surprised to see Busby below Thornliebank .

 

[clc]

The gap has widened in the last couple of years with Thornliebank now up to 285,594 and Busby on 167,312.

 

[snookertam]

Cathcart circle is really two services running north south that are operationally linked together to run as a circle on some services. The route to Glasgow Central is much more direct and fast than the route from South Sub to Waverley and so rail is faster than bus on this corridor.

For example
Pollokshaws East - Glasgow Central is 3.3 miles by rail, 3.1 miles by road.
Mount Florida - Glasgow Central is 2.8 miles by rail, 2.6 miles by road

Morningside - Waverley 3.8 miles by rail, 2.3 miles by road
Cameron Toll - Waverley 6.6 miles by rail 2.1 miles by road

So you can see Cathcart circle the distances are comparable between rail and road whereas on the South Sub the distances by rail are 2-3 times further so rail will struggle to be competitive on price and journey time.

Another notable point is that train fares in this part of Glasgow are actually cheaper than bus fares.

Re: the original suggestion - I'd argue that a 10/20/40 min frequency would be a worthwhile improvement, along the lines of:

Odd hours departures from central
XX:00 Neilston
XX:05 Inner Circle
XX:10 Newton Via Queens Park
XX:20 Neilston
XX:25 Newton via Maxwell Pk
XX:30 Outer Circle
XX:40 Neilston
XX:45 Inner Circle
XX:50 Newton via Queens Park

Even hours
XX:00 Neilston
XX:05 Newton via Maxwell Pk
XX:10 Outer circle
XX:20 Neilston
XX:25 Inner Circle
XX:30 Newton via Queens Pk
XX:40 Neilston
XX:45 Newton via Maxwell
XX:50 Outer Circle

No part of the network has to wait more than 20 minutes for a service. Barring unforeseen pathing issues at Muirhouse etc I think that could be achieved. However what we are seeing instead with the introduction of 4 car 380s on the Neilstons and pending 385s on circles are a move to increase capacity on each train rather than running more of them.

 

[route101]

The gap has widened in the last couple of years with Thornliebank now up to 285,594 and Busby on 167,312.

Interesting , thought Busby was quite busy and when i used the line Thornliebank was quieter.