Caught without valid railcard

[JTOM123]

Greetings all, I have been worried sick the past week after being caught without a valid railcard for a journey I took from lime street with my girlfriend to a station not that far away the tickets are only around £5-6 usually, I was stopped by staff on my exit after already having my ticket scanned on the train which they didn’t ask for my railcard and never have done, after being stopped I panicked and said I left it at home but I didn’t I just didn’t want to cause a fuss as my and my girlfriends taxi was waiting outside and was about to leave I don’t have a valid student railcard although I am a student I believe I could have made this ticket error quite a lot of times maybe around 30-40 and I know it’s my fault I should check my ticket which I’m so stupid for not doing but it’s difficult as I often buy tickets for my girlfriend who does have a valid student railcard any advice would be greatly appreciated as it’s affecting me mentally as have anxiety issues. I have since purchased a student railcard as proof of not allowing this to happen again. I have read a few other cases on here and it usually looks like northern rail offer out of court settlements but I’m so scared as I do not want a criminal record and would kindly ask if any reassurance can be given

 

[30907]

Quick reply, and welcome!
1. Were you given any paperwork, if so please upload it (without personal detailss).
2. As you say, Northern can usually be persuaded to offer a settlement, but they will investigate your travel history and discover your repeated cheating. They may ask you to repay the whole lot.
3. There is nothing you can do until they contact you, other than start saving, make sure you pay the right fare from now on, and try not to worry.

 

[JTOM123]

Thanks for this advice I was given a incident report receipt which I have misplaced but I gave them all the correct details etc I’m so scared about this as I’m a young student who doesn’t want his career ruined by something so stupid. It’s officially been a week since today how much longer am I likely to wait. I’ve emailed them asking to resolve the matter but they just said I’ll receive a letter in the post and then not replied to my follow up email of asking to call and sort it out. Have I done the wrong thing here ik so scared ?

 

[jfollows]

Spend the waiting time going through your purchase history and identifying the occasions you validly bought discounted tickets for your girlfriend versus invalidly for yourself. Construct a letter using the advice on other cases here and post it for others to suggest improvements if required. Expect to pay full fare for your invalid tickets, or all of them if they don’t believe you bought some for your girlfriend, plus something like £150 as a settlement. If you tell us the journey(s) we can advise on the full fare likely. Then you are set for when you receive their letter.

 

[JTOM123]

Thank you very much you kind people I’ll do this after my uni lectures today so is it highly likely I’ll just be paying for the journeys they think I’ve made without a valid railcard rather than going to court?

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you very much you kind people I’ll do this after my uni lectures today so is it highly likely I’ll just be paying for the journeys they think I’ve made without a valid railcard rather than going to court?

That is the objective you need to aim at - ie to secure an out of court settlement rather then them deciding to prosecute you - if you look at other threads you will see the process and the advice on how to best go about that.

But you do need to construct a clear list of tickets that were yours and tickets bought for your girlfriend with a discount you do not have an entitlement - because as they start investigating your ticket buying history they are going to assume those tickets for her were possibly tickets you bought for yourself at a cheaper rather than you were entitled to pay - so you need to be clear which is which as you may need to try to convince them of that.

Which train company are you dealing with (the one who stopped and questioned you) - is it Northern rail, or Merseyrail, or a different one? They can often have different approaches to how they deal with this sort of thing between the different train companies.

 

[JTOM123]

It was northern rail many thanks I’m unsure on how to tell which ones I’ve bought for her and which ones were for myself as when she selects railcard on Trainline it does not come off after I’ve bought the ticket so the total amount of journeys I’ve made from liverpool to warrington is around 40 and have no idea how to tell which ones were me and which ones were her because we only make that journey to come and visit one another.
I’ve now bought a student railcard as mitigation to prove to them that I’m sincerly sorry for my mistake im going to write a draft letter after uni to get some opinions.
Many thanks

 

[Gloster]

Did you buy tickets for the your girlfriend when she accompanied you, so there will be two tickets bought for X to Y at the same time, or did she make separate journeys? If she made separate journeys, were they on the same route(s) as you usually travel on?

 

[JTOM123]

hi thanks for the reply, I have only ever made the same journey to and from liverpool to warrington back on Trainline with one or two other journeys to stations nearby liverpool as I only started taking the train when I met my girlfriend at the end of October last year. Sometimes I just paid for her tickets out of kindness even when I didn’t travel myself which is why it’s so difficult to tell which ones were legitimate and which ones weren’t. I have looked on my Apple wallet and can see 28 expired tickets which have the railcard discount all of them I believe are journeys from Warrington to liverpool or from liverpool to warrington.

I think I’ve found 3 times where there’s proof of us travelling at the same time as there is two tickets purchased in the same transaction

 

[jfollows]

Warrington-Liverpool is £7.10 single, so factor this into your calculations.

 

[JTOM123]

It is Warrington west I travel to which I believe is 6.70

28 journeys on my Apple wallet adds up to £187.60 in anytime single fares is this a amount they are likely to take me to court over or will they allow me to pay all this + admin fees

 

[jfollows]

It is Warrington west I travel to which I believe is 6.70

28 journeys on my Apple wallet adds up to £187.60 in anytime single fares is this a amount they are likely to take me to court over or will they allow me to pay all this + admin fees

OK. Take this as worst case cost, then, with £150 on top, I think, and budget for this in due course. If you engage with them they seem to be willing to take this approach rather than court- if nothing else it both costs them less and they get more ££ out of it.

 

[JTOM123]

Ok thanks for this it has made me so much more confident in righting this wrong I’ll make sure to upload anything which happens with my case to help others. Are they likely to check my girlfriends Trainline history or anything like that because I don’t want her to have to deal with something as stressful as this it’s not her fault at all it’s just the combination of me not knowing the severity and implications of not checking your ticket when you buy it and me being relatively new to train travel.

Many thanks

 

[pelli]

Can't you tell who travelled from the direction and timings of the tickets? Assuming you live in L and she lives in W, then any return ticket L-W-L would be you and W-L-W would be her, and if you used singles then looking at the timings/dates could indicate direction, and also two consecutive L-W L-W tickets would mean the first was her going home and the second was you going to her, and the opposite for W-L followed by W-L. Also, if for example you typically met over the weekend then a Fri or early Sat L-W journey would be you going to her while W-L would be her going to you. (You can cross-reference with her own booking history as well, and if either of you have location history turned on on your phones then you would know from that.)

Presenting this sort of argument (but not in excessive detail!) to the Train Operating Company might also help convince them that it really wasn't you travelling every time. Some companies (but I don't think I've heard of Northern doing this?) send out a spreadsheet with suspicious journeys and ask for a comment on each line, and that would be an opportunity to write e.g. "My girlfriend coming to visit me over the weekend" etc.

 

[JTOM123]

Thanks for the reply I don’t believe I can really tell which are 100% her or me as I quite often drive to pick her up and go to liverpool as she lives there and I live in Warrington it also it depends on the week If worse case is I just say I’ll pay for the whole lot which is around 40 to have it sorted are they likely to prosecute?

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks for the reply I don’t believe I can really tell which are 100% her or me as I quite often drive to pick her up and go to liverpool as she lives there and I live in Warrington it also it depends on the week If worse case is I just say I’ll pay for the whole lot which is around 40 to have it sorted are they likely to prosecute?

I think the chances of prosecution are slim if you engage with them (as you are preparing to do) and apologise for the error.

Also I don't think they will start to investigate your girlfriends Trainline account unless they also stopped her and took her details (which I assume you would have said if they did?)

It would be a good idea to try and info your misplaced Incident Receipt if you can. Probably not vital but better to have it than not have it if possible.

 

[JTOM123]

I don’t think I’ll be able to find the incident receipt but I do have the incident number as I emailed them right after the incident with the reference number regarding the situation

 

[WesternLancer]

I don’t think I’ll be able to find the incident receipt but I do have the incident number as I emailed them right after the incident with the reference number regarding the situation

OK - that's helpful to have in any case, if needed again.

 

[JTOM123]

Is it normal for them to just reply to my email after the incident saying that I’ll receive a letter in the post, like can they not resolve the issue until I’ve been issued with the letter ?

 

[WesternLancer]

Is it normal for them to just reply to my email after the incident saying that I’ll receive a letter in the post, like can they not resolve the issue until I’ve been issued with the letter ?

yes, it's normal - they will want to set up a case on their IT system, check your ticket buying records in case there are things they find that need including in their letter to ask you about etc etc (not saying they will but they will have a process that is used for the hundreds of these cases that they deal with every week)
you just need to be patient and wait to hear from them.

 

[JTOM123]

Thanks for this information it has helped me out a lot, so it’s not guaranteed they’re gonna check my records ? As as I’ve said in this case it’s probably happened quite a lot due to me and my girlfriend visiting each other. And also does the letter normally arrive in two weeks ?

And also I’m just worried about the fact of me saying to the officers at the station that I left my railcard at home even though I don’t have a one but all the other details I gave them are correct and I only said this out of shear panick as it’s never happened to me before.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks for this information it has helped me out a lot, so it’s not guaranteed they’re gonna check my records ? As as I’ve said in this case it’s probably happened quite a lot due to me and my girlfriend visiting each other. And also does the letter normally arrive in two weeks ?

It's not gauranteed that they will check the records, but you should assume that they will. There is alot of fare evasion that happens (often at a petty level) and they know that it's staistically unlikelyt o find soemoen doing it the 1st time they have evaded - so it makes sense to check records - especially when peopel leave easy to find 'digital fingerprints' for them to follow - form their point of view it would be daft not to do basic checks.

And also I’m just worried about the fact of me saying to the officers at the station that I left my railcard at home even though I don’t have a one but all the other details I gave them are correct and I only said this out of shear panick as it’s never happened to me before.

They will be used to people who say that, as it's a common lie (going by the regular instances of it on this forum) that people say when in situations like the one you found yourself in. There is no evidence that saying it has much bearing on the chances of being prosecuted or not.

The main thing is that you get their letter and respond to it - so long as you gave an address where you can check your post regularly (including in university holidays if you are a student) - you have every chance of getting this sorted out without prosecution.

 

[JTOM123]

Thanks a bunch will keep you guys updated with a draft email response when I get round to it. I also sent them a picture of my girlfriends railcard to prove how this error can occur is this likely to help my case or damage it further ?

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks a bunch will keep you guys updated with a draft email response when I get round to it. I also sent them a picture of my girlfriends railcard to prove how this error can occur is this likely to help my case or damage it further ?

I don't think it would do any harm - but the important thing is to wait for their letter to see what they are actually asking you. That would be the stage to send copies of things like that - so you may need to do it again in due course depending on what they ask you.

 

[JTOM123]

Oh ok thanks for this it’s been about a week now so hopefully it comes next week is the longer the wait the worse it’s gonna be or does it not really matter ?

 

[WesternLancer]

Oh ok thanks for this it’s been about a week now so hopefully it comes next week is the longer the wait the worse it’s gonna be or does it not really matter ?

The longer the wait the more cases they are dealing with at their end I expect, or someone taken a weeks holiday in their team - nothing to do with you IMHO - your case will be one of hundreds they are dealing with at any time, as I say.

 

[JTOM123]

Ok thanks again for repeated advice I’m just gonna sit tight and try to get back to being happy again whilst waiting for this letter as it’s had quite a negative impact on my life. I’ll provide updates when anything happens.

Hi again when they responded to my email of my girlfriends railcard they replied with “Thank you for your email. When applying a railcard discount to a ticket, the railcard must belong to the passenger. This matter is being assessed and you will receive a letter in the post.” Does this mean that they are just investigating the case in general or have they now added this evidence to try and take me to court? Im really scared and having panic attacks over this any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[WesternLancer]

Ok thanks again for repeated advice I’m just gonna sit tight and try to get back to being happy again whilst waiting for this letter as it’s had quite a negative impact on my life. I’ll provide updates when anything happens.

Hi again when they responded to my email of my girlfriends railcard they replied with “Thank you for your email. When applying a railcard discount to a ticket, the railcard must belong to the passenger. This matter is being assessed and you will receive a letter in the post.” Does this mean that they are just investigating the case in general or have they now added this evidence to try and take me to court? Im really scared and having panic attacks over this any help would be greatly appreciated.

No. I think it means they misunderstood why you sent them a copy of your girlfriend s railcard. Ie they thought you were trying to show you had a railcard even tho it wasn’t yours. Rather than you trying to explain how things got mixed up.

This is the reason, or a reason, not to write to them about stuff until they write to you in my opinion. It’s probably just served to confuse them.

 

[JTOM123]

So what should I do becuause it’s gotten me scared

 

[jfollows]

So what should I do becuause it’s gotten me scared

Wait
Easy for me to say, I agree, but don’t engage with them until they write to you, just plan what you’re going to say for now.