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Central Connect / Vectare
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markymark2000
Established Member
Oh god help us all. Given how anti passenger Vectare are with their timetables and route numbers and given how anti bus Essex Council are, how long before we see 300 variations to every route.
On the plus side, maybe passengers will see some benefits with larger ticket acceptance such as in Epping, Harlow and Waltham Cross and maybe, though I highly doubt, Vectare will have the sense to mix some of the routes to make the network simpler and improve the bus network more generally (such as the Epping 18 and Harlow 18 merged into the 420.
On the plus side, maybe passengers will see some benefits with larger ticket acceptance such as in Epping, Harlow and Waltham Cross and maybe, though I highly doubt, Vectare will have the sense to mix some of the routes to make the network simpler and improve the bus network more generally (such as the Epping 18 and Harlow 18 merged into the 420.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
I'm not quite certain where your view of Vectare comes from? Aside from liking a route suffix, they don't come across as particularly anti-passenger.
What's your experience of them? And of Central Connect/Galleon/Trustybus?
Robertj21a
On Moderation
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Do you know much about Vectare?.
Which of their areas/routes have upset you so much ?
tram21
Member
What's wrong with Vectare? Here in the East Midlands their passenger focus is amazing.
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lxfe_mxtterz
Member
That's rather surprising. From my experience, I've always found Vectare excellent - much better than Trustybus / Central Connect at least, who I found to be a bit ropey.
I haven’t travelled on a single Vectare service, but I’ve been observing their Essex operation from afar and they appear to be a quality company. They communicate to questions well on social media, and their website contains decent timetables, fare information and maps. Vehicle appearance looks very good, and they seem to have made big improvements since they first started - when they had vehicles in unbranded condition.
One thing I quite like is they seem to utilise as much dead mileage as they can for commercial journeys, which explains the various route variations they have. You can argue having lots of variations can be confusing, but in my view it’s better than using just the same number for a variety of different journeys.
They did try to lobby Essex County Council to remember the 418 contract as 18, which would fit in better with their network, and it is argued that smaller route numbers are better for passengers as they are easier to remember.
One thing I quite like is they seem to utilise as much dead mileage as they can for commercial journeys, which explains the various route variations they have. You can argue having lots of variations can be confusing, but in my view it’s better than using just the same number for a variety of different journeys.
They did try to lobby Essex County Council to remember the 418 contract as 18, which would fit in better with their network, and it is argued that smaller route numbers are better for passengers as they are easier to remember.
cnjb8
Established Member
Agreed. They've saved a few services from withdrawal here, such as the 90 (Nottingham to Newark) from Marshalls
markymark2000
Established Member
Not experienced them but Ive heard they are a sketchy operator. The criticism wasn't aimed at them though, it was aimed at Vectare
Essex is awful. Loads of extra routes for the sake of extra routes routes with just 1 stop difference it's a new route number. Complete mess. Completely different timetables (and sometimes routes) Monday-Friday compared to Saturdays.
Needlessly competing with other operators for absolutely zero passenger benefit (like the 18 and 22)
East Midlands division seems to be alright but they seem to have certain areas which let them down. The Novus Mercedes still have Arriva Click logos inside! A trip on Novus Flex, I was expecting the high spec minibuses which they advertise, it turned up as ford transit, double cab crew van.
East of England shouldn't even be a division. The contracts should have gone to a local operator. St Ives, what a complete and utter mess. Not helped by Cambridgeshire combined Authority who seem to be just as bad with routes.
Leicester isn't bad except my NovuxFlex journey ended up as a journey in the crew van rather than the luxury minibuses that are promoted.
I agree with you here. They are trying to promote and are doing the right things in that department. And as you say, least the buses are now in a proper livery.
I really agree with dead mileage routes. They just need integrating into the core network. There's no reason why the normal route number can't 'extend' to the depot rather than making it a completely separate route. The 2X Loughborough for example I agree with as it makes sense. The Harlow 20 though serves literally 5 stops. It's useless to anyone and just needlessly complicates the bus network. The gain to Vectare will be hardly anything as well.
Saved and replaced it with 5 separate routes. What a massive improvement for Nottinghamshire. It's getting so bad, Geoff Marshall is planning his new series, All the Vectare buses which replaced Marshalls 90. (It's a working title).
Flange Squeal
Established Member
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I only have fairly limited experience of Central Connect, and whilst the fleet isn't all that modern, I'd definitely say both vehicle and service quality have been gradually improving over recent years as the Trustybus name has given way. Not perfect, but certainly an improvement from the "Rustybus" days and before - seem to have begun "maturing".
Robertj21a
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Interesting and rather sweeping views, seemingly at odds with observations from myself and others.
Surely, the 90 is still the 90. Any suffixes etc are always helpful inasmuch that they highlight differences from the main route.
There is no Novus Flex, it was withdrawn.
Any idea what this 'crew van' was. Sounds odd - so not any form of 'bus' at all ?
CBlue
Member
Central Connect are defiitely way better than the old "Rustybus / Galleon" days. Their fleet, even the brand new E200s are still rather scruffy in ways but a definite upgrade over the heaps they used to operate!
Matter of opinion surely. A complete mess to me is a stack of different services having the same number. If you happen to be served by the different stop its very customer friendly for them to know via the route number which buses serve them. Could admittably be done via a suffix letter.
tram21
Member
They've done nothing but improve the route. There's 90/B/C, all helping customers on variations on the route. They also introduced a new 92 via the villages in the evening replacing the Cotgrave, a great link!
CBlue
Member
I can't help but be curious who you're comparing Vectare to - especially given the criticism you've metered out to many other operators on this forum, say D&G and so forth. Part of me is curious as to what your industry experience is.
Are they perfect? No. The Cambridge area operations are a joke, true. Otherwise it seems like they are definitely trying rather hard to make the routes attractive. Compare that to other local operators like Stagecoach East or Arriva and they are head and shoulders above in their approach.
markymark2000
Established Member
Or, the most customer friendly thing to do, not change the route on a Saturday so that it omits one stop. It costs 2 minutes but makes no difference to the resources needed so just serve the stop.
Clearly I mean when Novus Flex was around. It wasn't a bus at all. I still have a photo of the vehicle. (See below)
The 90 is one service. The B for short runs, the C extends. Any other bus company would have this as just a 90. Many of the extra routes are not needed and could easily be merged into the core service. Of course if a bus diverts off the main route its more understandable but this is mostly extensions or short runs on the core network. Some of it isn't helped by anti bus Essex Council who aren't overly supportive of simplifying the bus network and commercial extensions of tenders but there's many more examples where Vectare could do better.
90 could and should be all one route number. The 92 night bus then makes sense as a 90A (variation off core route) or 90E (90 evenings).
I've work in the industry. That's all that needs to be made public.
I praise where praise is due. Cricise where operators simply aren't doing the best for the public. I think if Vectare sorted out their routes, the other things would be let slide but at the moment, while the routes are a mess, all other faults may as well be mentioned. Worth saying that I have said above that I agree with another poster that Vectares vehicles have improved a lot since they started. Only thing letting the vehicles down (bar the crew van situation) is the Arriva Click stuff on the Novus buses. Not very good another brand dotted all over your vehicles.
I don't think I am comparing Vectare to a to anyone. They seem to be making good efforts with promotion. Would be much easier to promote a route though is there were less variations and kudos to the for stepping in on some routes when others have backed down. I am skeptical though about some of the things they take on. It's more speculative though with no proof so won't post here as mods wouldn't be pleased.
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Might to down to tendering requirements ?
Not neccessarily - look at Nottinghams "South Notts" Route 1 for example. The reverse happens with Transdev in Harrogate with short workings on its "Route 1" numbered as 1 and the main services 1A 1B 1C and 1D
kaicj190410@gm
New Member
I'm so glad. Central Connect have one of the worst bus services i have ever seen in my life. From buses that struggle to drive, to buses that break down, to buses that sometimes are either extremely late or just don't turn up at all.
This constantly happens on the H bus routes in Hertford. The bus either breaks down trying to climb the hill, or it simply becomes a Route Replacement bus. I remember this time really well. An Optare Esteem was running on the 351 route (Hertford - Bishops Stortford) The route runs through a forest at very high speeds on country roads which for an ex-London bus. Something bad is going to happen.
The 333 had to become the 351 since a MMC was on the route and the H4 had to become the 333 since it was a Sprinter which is bad since the H4 is my local and I sometimes rely on it to take me to school. I know who Vectare is, and I'm glad the buses will now be in good hands and taken care of more than Central Connect who did not care at all.
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markymark2000
Established Member
The one of the only other bus companies in the UK to do have 600 suffix routes. Are there any other companies beyond Nottingham City Transport and Vectare who do the many suffix routes as a regular thing (not like the Transdev example where it's one route out of 100). I know it's certainly not widespread (for good reason).
That is only example at Transdev that I can find and think of. The 843 has 6 different termini and doesn't have separate route numbers.
Route 36 has 4 route versions (Ripon-Leeds, Ripon-Starbeck, Starbeck-Leeds, Harrogate to Leeds. Of course these run both ways) but all come under one route number happily and everyone knows where they stand.
Reading Buses, one of the most highly regarded operators, no one is calling for the 702 to be split into different routes despite it having so many variations.
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TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Just to go back to your initial line...
I've had limited dealings with Vectare in Essex but they come across as a well turned out, competent business. A low bar but their vehicles in Harlow are conspicuous in being much better presented, and they seem fairly reliable. Judging by others' comments on their level of customer service, and indeed their service delivery, they would seem to be a decent firm. If a penchant for numbering variations is the epitome of an anti-passenger business, I suggest you are not focussing on the important things. I might add that a number of firms use different numbering criteria. First Leeds, for instance, have the 7 with 7A/7S variations depending on where they terminate in Alwoodley or Shadley, and I can suggest a few more - firms have differing approaches.
Certainly, Vectare are better than Galleon/CC though I have similarly noticed that they are getting better. At one time, it was case of heading to Ensign and getting any bus with a wheel at each corner, and getting some Eastern European bloke to aim it. I certainly have seen some sights, having had fairly regular trips to Stevenage, Chelmsford and Harlow in the last two years in connection with work.
CC have been busy getting new e200mmcs so the age profile of the fleet is better though there's a persistent feel that quality is still some way off it needs. Whilst the bus scene in Chelmsford has been improving as First are getting themselves in some better position, Harlow is a singularly depressing spot with Central Connect and Arriva; with Vectare making this purchase, that will begin to improve.
I've had limited dealings with Vectare in Essex but they come across as a well turned out, competent business. A low bar but their vehicles in Harlow are conspicuous in being much better presented, and they seem fairly reliable. Judging by others' comments on their level of customer service, and indeed their service delivery, they would seem to be a decent firm. If a penchant for numbering variations is the epitome of an anti-passenger business, I suggest you are not focussing on the important things. I might add that a number of firms use different numbering criteria. First Leeds, for instance, have the 7 with 7A/7S variations depending on where they terminate in Alwoodley or Shadley, and I can suggest a few more - firms have differing approaches.
Certainly, Vectare are better than Galleon/CC though I have similarly noticed that they are getting better. At one time, it was case of heading to Ensign and getting any bus with a wheel at each corner, and getting some Eastern European bloke to aim it. I certainly have seen some sights, having had fairly regular trips to Stevenage, Chelmsford and Harlow in the last two years in connection with work.
CC have been busy getting new e200mmcs so the age profile of the fleet is better though there's a persistent feel that quality is still some way off it needs. Whilst the bus scene in Chelmsford has been improving as First are getting themselves in some better position, Harlow is a singularly depressing spot with Central Connect and Arriva; with Vectare making this purchase, that will begin to improve.
alanburt
New Member
The use of that Transit van on routes is true. It was mainly on the Ting contract. Vectare was in trouble with the Traffic Commissioner a few months ago…
Mod note: Please edit to include a link to the document you've referred to. Also, the text should be copied and pasted into your post, and must be enclosed within quote tags; this makes it more accessible.
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overground720
New Member
It's starting.
For the last few months Vectare vehicles have been operating on Central connect routes and vice versa and Central connect have got a new fleet numbering system to match Vectares now. I even once saw on a twitter post what may be a new logo and livery for Central connect vehicles.
For the last few months Vectare vehicles have been operating on Central connect routes and vice versa and Central connect have got a new fleet numbering system to match Vectares now. I even once saw on a twitter post what may be a new logo and livery for Central connect vehicles.
tram21
Member
I've been told by a Vectare bus driver that Vectare East Midlands will get 4 of Central Connect's short E200 MMCs for use on our 90/B/C +92/B routes. Therefore I assume Essex will get 315 back and probably some Mercedes Citylines too!
markymark2000
Established Member
(Tagging Vectares owner, posting here as it has relevance to the thread)
@pjnathanail
Are you able to give any details on what changes we may see coming up with Vectare and Central Connect? Of course there are the few changes happening mostly around Hertford but this doesn't address what I would say is the elephant in the room which is the networks around Harlow where Vectare and Central Connect run a number of complimentary routes and even some competing routes and there is no ticket acceptance in place here between the two operations.
@pjnathanail
Are you able to give any details on what changes we may see coming up with Vectare and Central Connect? Of course there are the few changes happening mostly around Hertford but this doesn't address what I would say is the elephant in the room which is the networks around Harlow where Vectare and Central Connect run a number of complimentary routes and even some competing routes and there is no ticket acceptance in place here between the two operations.
pjnathanail
Member
All supported local buses in Essex are due for retender in early 2024, and the outcome of those tenders will play a big part in how the networks of both operators look in the medium term, as the majority of work requires some form of council funding. This impacts upon the ability to permit shared ticketing between the two networks in the short term.
Our current focus is on investing in the Central Connect fleet and depot infrastructure to improve things for both drivers and passengers.
Once the tender outcomes are known we will then be able to complete our network review and at that stage a simplified and unified ticket offering across both networks will be brought into place.
tram21
Member
What changes might we see in the ever more popular and successful East Midlands Network in the near future (but past January where obviously there are even more great changes coming to the 90/92!)
pjnathanail
Member
The January changes that you mention plus the enhancement to frequency in Leicester on NovusDirect are a big investment for us, and we also have a new service launching in Peterborough too in January, so we’ll need to see how that all beds down. It’s likely there’ll be further tender opportunities in the Midlands during 2024 as well.
tram21
Member
Looks like Vectare East Mids has had Central Connect E200 MMC 327 transferred and has been on 90 today. Not sure if this is temporary or is one of the permanent transfers for use on the upgraded 90/92 from Monday. If its permanent it seems like a slightly odd transfer considering its a full Central Connect livery with what is presumably a Central Connect personalised number plate as well!
Velix
New Member
I'd expect this vehicle to be painted over the coming weeks.
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