Chester to Manchester line

[absolutelymilk]

Anyone have any idea what the linespeed is on the Chester to Manchester line (via Warrington Bank Quay)? (Ideally with a reputable source) Thanks!

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Anyone have any idea what the linespeed is on the Chester to Manchester line (via Warrington Bank Quay)? (Ideally with a reputable source) Thanks!

The Sectional Appendix for the route will be available on the Network Rail website. It's LNW North.

I think most of it's around the 90mph mark.

 

[OxtedL]

Link to that part of the sectional appendix (its a 28.5 MB pdf)

Chester to Warrington (exclusive) is NW3003, page 301 of the pdf. Looks predominantly 75mph.

I'll let the OP or someone else look up the rest.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Sectional Appendix for the route will be available on the Network Rail website. It's LNW North.
I think most of it's around the 90mph mark.

Nothing like.
75mph Chester-Warrington (with 40 through Helsby and 50 at Acton Grange).
60 on the WCML slows, 50 at Winwick Jn, 20 round the Earlestown curve, then a sprint at 90 to Astley.
Astley is briefly 60 and then 75 on to Ordsall Lane.
Also crippling approach control at Warrington (from the south, using P4), and approaching Chester.
Southbound trains often go slow line from Warrington to Acton Grange which has another very low limit at first (15mph) towards Walton Old Jn.
Expect to hang around at Winwick Jn southbound waiting for the WCML to clear.
Not an easy line to "get going".

 

[absolutelymilk]

Link to that part of the sectional appendix (its a 28.5 MB pdf)

Chester to Warrington (exclusive) is NW3003, page 301 of the pdf. Looks predominantly 75mph.

I'll let the OP or someone else look up the rest.

Thanks for the link!

Nothing like.
75mph Chester-Warrington (with 40 through Helsby and 50 at Acton Grange).
60 on the WCML slows, 50 at Winwick Jn, 20 round the Earlestown curve, then a sprint at 90 to Astley.
Astley is briefly 60 and then 75 on to Ordsall Lane.
Also crippling approach control at Warrington (from the south, using P4), and approaching Chester.
Southbound trains often go slow line from Warrington to Acton Grange which has another very low limit at first (15mph) towards Walton Old Jn.
Expect to hang around at Winwick Jn southbound waiting for the WCML to clear.
Not an easy line to "get going".

I'm surprised the WCML slow is so slow! Is there a reason for this?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

That stretch of the WCML (Acton Grange to Wigan) was essentially untouched in the overall upgrade. No tilt (EPS speeds) on the fast lines, for instance.
As far as Chester services are concerned, it hardly affects them as they are not going to break any speed limits between Winwick and Warrington.
Southbound, they often use the fast lines (90/80) anyway.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Anyone have any idea what the linespeed is on the Chester to Manchester line (via Warrington Bank Quay)? (Ideally with a reputable source) Thanks!

Northern Hub's journey time improvement (JTI) scheme was shelved when Crewe - Chester - Warrington electrification became a fully-fledged rumour.

However, the JTI is about as alive as the electrification at the moment ...

 

[absolutelymilk]

That stretch of the WCML (Acton Grange to Wigan) was essentially untouched in the overall upgrade. No tilt (EPS speeds) on the fast lines, for instance.
As far as Chester services are concerned, it hardly affects them as they are not going to break any speed limits between Winwick and Warrington.
Southbound, they often use the fast lines (90/80) anyway.

I meant the 60mph northbound (I assume the 15mph is not for very long) which seems very slow to me

 

[absolutelymilk]

Nothing like.
75mph Chester-Warrington (with 40 through Helsby and 50 at Acton Grange).
60 on the WCML slows, 50 at Winwick Jn, 20 round the Earlestown curve, then a sprint at 90 to Astley.
Astley is briefly 60 and then 75 on to Ordsall Lane.
Also crippling approach control at Warrington (from the south, using P4), and approaching Chester.
Southbound trains often go slow line from Warrington to Acton Grange which has another very low limit at first (15mph) towards Walton Old Jn.
Expect to hang around at Winwick Jn southbound waiting for the WCML to clear.
Not an easy line to "get going".

Are there any plans to raise the linespeed, especially when the 100mph 195s start operating the Chester-Leeds service, and when Arriva get some new stock, or at least have a higher proportion of services operated by 175 rather than sprinters?

I presume as it's mostly fairly straight, there wouldn't be too many issues raising the speed?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Are there any plans to raise the linespeed, especially when the 100mph 195s start operating the Chester-Leeds service, and when Arriva get some new stock, or at least have a higher proportion of services operated by 175 rather than sprinters?
I presume as it's mostly fairly straight, there wouldn't be too many issues raising the speed?

It is fairly straight, but I don't think there are any plans to raise the line speed.
There's the long tunnel at Norton, a long embankment with two bridges over the Weaver and canal (plus the awkward junction from Runcorn).
Helsby junction seems designed to obstruct any increase in the 40mph limit there, and the approach to Chester is very slow with severe approach control into the station.
It's strange though that the Welsh Government has spent money to raise line speeds between Shrewsbury and Chester (now mostly 90mph), but the DfT/NR can't do the same between Chester and Warrington or Shrewsbury and Wolverhampton.
Chester-Crewe is at least 90mph now, bar the curves through Beeston.

 

[PHILIPE]

It is fairly straight, but I don't think there are any plans to raise the line speed.
There's the long tunnel at Norton, a long embankment with two bridges over the Weaver and canal (plus the awkward junction from Runcorn).
Helsby junction seems designed to obstruct any increase in the 40mph limit there, and the approach to Chester is very slow with severe approach control into the station.
It's strange though that the Welsh Government has spent money to raise line speeds between Shrewsbury and Chester (now mostly 90mph), but the DfT/NR can't do the same between Chester and Warrington or Shrewsbury and Wolverhampton.
Chester-Crewe is at least 90mph now, bar the curves through Beeston.

Because they are in England

 

[Polarbear]

Chester to Manchester should, in theory, be a big money spinner for the railway, but the relatively slow line speeds, combined with the stopping pattern (nearly everything stops at most stations), don't make it particularly attractive.

Yes, the trains are fairly busy, but one only has to glance at the M56 to see where most of the market is.

Having said that, it would be quite expensive/near impossible to speed up some parts of the line, such as between Winwick Junction and Newton-le-Willows or across Chat Moss. The only real opportunity to raise the line speed seems to be between Chester and Warrington, where the alignment is relatively straight (Helsby station being a notable exception).

Much as I'd live to see some decent grade separation both north and south of Warrington, (or even just at one point so as to have the WCML and Chester - Manchester lines run parallel through the Warrington area), I realise it wouldn't meet any form of cross benefit analysis.

The introduction of the semi-fast Northern service will help too, though not by that much I suspect.

 

[absolutelymilk]

Helsby junction seems designed to obstruct any increase in the 40mph limit there, and the approach to Chester is very slow with severe approach control into the station.

Is there any reason why these are so slow? There doesn't seem to be any obvious geographical reason why they are so slow.

 

[daikilo]

Is there any reason why these are so slow? There doesn't seem to be any obvious geographical reason why they are so slow.

In my opinion Helsby junction could be improved if the junction became single lead, possibly with the cross-over moved further north and off the bend.

The Chester approach is at the end of a long descent and was the scene of a freight train run-away into the bay platforms; not impossible to improve a little but would probably require significant track and signalling work.

Regarding the other poster's comment about the connection to the Halton Curve, not clear to me why it should cause issues for the speed on the Warrington line.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

In my opinion Helsby junction could be improved if the junction became single lead, possibly with the cross-over moved further north and off the bend.
The Chester approach is at the end of a long descent and was the scene of a freight train run-away into the bay platforms; not impossible to improve a little but would probably require significant track and signalling work.
Regarding the other poster's comment about the connection to the Halton Curve, not clear to me why it should cause issues for the speed on the Warrington line.

Frodsham Jn is high on an embankment and right on the approach to the Weaver viaduct.
Some improvement works will be needed to put the new junction in towards Runcorn, but it's unlikely the main line will be improved.
I also forgot the low bridge(s) over the River Gowy between Dunham Hill and Mickle Trafford, which always seem to generate a lurch or two at 75mph.
I could see that being an obstacle to higher speeds.
And then the signalling is very limited (sighting etc).