Chiltern May 2023 timetable change - for the worse or better?

[Vanmanyo]

So if we take RTT for granted this is the Chiltern may TT changes;

68s reduced to two diagrams, passenger workings possibly cut north of Stourbridge or even north of Birmingham, services via the Met to go hourly off-peak, both Oxford and Birmingham services to be slowed down/serve more stops. Birmingham to London services 2tph. None of this is definitive but I think most of it is correct.

Surely this is for the worse? I mean the Chiltern stock won't be able to cope with high demand at the Birmingham end and reducing an already busy Aylesbury via Amersham service to hourly off-peak and on weekends is stupid? So is no more Kidderminster services and a large 68-diagram reduction, (The Kidderminster services were always popular and allowed direct travel between Kidderminster to London; without a direct service I don't think people would be more inclined to travel to London via train). I don't see the sense in this TT change apart from silly reductions to save the DfT money.

If you have any thoughts or if I have spread misinformation do say!

 

[AJDesiro]

If I'm correct, the main reason behind this is probably the 10% budget cuts imposed by the DfT, running less 68s will inevitably save money given the Mk 3s will be getting expensive to maintain, curtailing Kidderminster services at Stourbridge also saves money, and keeps the driver depot open, people can use the relatively frequent WMR services to get to Stourbridge or Birmingham and change there for either a Chiltern to Marylebone, or walk 5 mins to New St and get the faster Avanti or cheaper LNWR.

Unfortunately, the aforementioned budget cuts have also meant that current services will have to stop at more stations in order to run less services, but keep a decent frequency (away from London-Amersham-High Wycombe).

None of this is ideal, but this is another symptom of the managed decline of the railway by the DfT.

 

[87015]

68s going bio-diesel with reduced fuelling possibilities so forced to do less. Nice green stickers though.

 

[Vanmanyo]

can use the relatively frequent WMR services to get to Stourbridge or Birmingham

The thing is that people tend not to use services as much if there isn't a direct service. Sure getting to moor street and changing for Chiltern isn't difficult but is less appealing than a direct service and takes longer

 

[A0]

The thing is that people tend not to use services as much if there isn't a direct service. Sure getting to moor street and changing for Chiltern isn't difficult but is less appealing than a direct service and takes longer

But don't forget that *most* of the cross Birmingham traffic to Kidderminster will be coming from within the West Midlands area - and the WMR services will continue to run to Dorridge and Whitlocks End.

So the places which are losing their "through" services are points between Warwick and London - and for Kidderminster it's through service to London, but in that sense Kidderminster's no different to its near neighbours Redditch or Bromsgrove which don't have direct London services either. Even Telford - bigger than Kidderminster by quite a margin, only sees 1 tpd to London at the moment with no sign of that increasing.

 

[Birmingham]

The Kidderminster services were always popular and allowed direct travel between Kidderminster to London; without a direct service I don't think people would be more inclined to travel to London via train

I doubt people are suddenly going to start driving all the way from Kidderminster to London because they’ve lost a direct service. At most perhaps they’ll drive to a station on the other side of the Chiltern lines but as others have pointed out the connection from the local service is perfectly fine.

 

[Suraggu]

Don't forget there is a complete timetable recast from May on the Chiltern and the snow Hill lines making clockface timetables out of MYB.

 

[sammyg901]

Overall the recast looks OK for most of their core users who ultimately they should be focusing on. Passengers from Birmingham, Oxford and the Met line (Amersham onwards) do have alternatives in place. Plenty of reports daily of overcrowding so it'll be interesting to see how the timetable beds in.

For me personally the lack of peak fast trains from Bicester Village like we had pre-COVID is a big shame - myself and a number of friends picked Bicester as a place to live with those in mind. We do have the Bicester North services which are faster but despite my preferred train being a hauled set getting a seat is not guaranteed especially mid week

 

[HamworthyGoods]

So if we take RTT for granted this is the Chiltern may TT changes;

68s reduced to two diagrams, passenger workings possibly cut north of Stourbridge or even north of Birmingham, services via the Met to go hourly off-peak, both Oxford and Birmingham services to be slowed down/serve more stops. Birmingham to London services 2tph. None of this is definitive but I think most of it is correct.

Surely this is for the worse? I mean the Chiltern stock won't be able to cope with high demand at the Birmingham end and reducing an already busy Aylesbury via Amersham service to hourly off-peak and on weekends is stupid? So is no more Kidderminster services and a large 68-diagram reduction, (The Kidderminster services were always popular and allowed direct travel between Kidderminster to London; without a direct service I don't think people would be more inclined to travel to London via train). I don't see the sense in this TT change apart from silly reductions to save the DfT money.

If you have any thoughts or if I have spread misinformation do say!

AFAIK the morning Princes Risborough starter remains loco hauled to maintain peak capacity.

 

[nw1]

Reducing Aylesbury to hourly seems quite drastic, given it's, AFAIK, quite a big place (and, I think, the county town of Bucks).

Will there be a second tph via High Wycombe, evenly spaced with the Met service to maintain a usable 2tph service?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Reducing Aylesbury to hourly seems quite drastic, given it's, AFAIK, quite a big place (and, I think, the county town of Bucks).

Will there be a second tph via High Wycombe, evenly spaced with the Met service to maintain a usable 2tph service?

The service via Little Kimble becomes an erratic shuttle just to Princes Risborough running every 60-90 minutes with around half a dozen through trains mostly at peak times.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The service via Little Kimble becomes an erratic shuttle just to Princes Risborough running every 60-90 minutes with around half a dozen through trains mostly at peak times.

Going that way doesn't really provide a useful service as it takes about half an hour longer.

Via Amersham it looks like 2tph to me, you aren't putting in Parkway are you? That's always only been hourly. They're close together because one is fast and one slow, but I don't think that is new?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Going that way doesn't really provide a useful service as it takes about half an hour longer.

Via Amersham it looks like 2tph to me, you aren't putting in Parkway are you? That's always only been hourly. They're close together because one is fast and one slow, but I don't think that is new?

Via Amersham is hourly off peak from May 23. Here’s a line up for Stoke Mandeville at lunchtime and you can clearly see the reduction.

Dec 22

Realtime Trains | Departures from Stoke Mandeville around 1231 on 17/05/2023

Train departures from Stoke Mandeville around 1231 on 17/05/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

May 23

Realtime Trains | Departures from Stoke Mandeville around 1231 on 14/06/2023

Train departures from Stoke Mandeville around 1231 on 14/06/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[nw1]

Via Amersham is hourly off peak from May 23. Here’s a line up for Stoke Mandeville at lunchtime and you can clearly see the reduction.

Dec 22

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/simple/gb-nr:sKM/2023-05-17/1231

May 23

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/simple/gb-nr:sKM/2023-06-14/1231

To be fair it does appear there is a switch to a 30-min frequency to Aylesbury after 1300. The down service in the morning seems to be particularly limited; haven't checked, but I guess the same applies to the up service in the afternoon.

Looking at that it appears there isn't 2tph to Birmingham every hour, for example the 1036 and 1236 both only go to Banbury.

Also all Birminghams and both Oxfords still seem to be reasonably (relatively) fast. One big loser seems to be the local stations inbound from High Wycombe, there is only one stopper per hour now when for most of the pre-Covid era there was 2.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sorry, yes, I was looking at Saturday for some reason.

I expect there's very low demand on weekday mid mornings. It's primarily a commuter route. I guess that frees up some units.

One side of me wonders if a half hourly shuttle to Amersham for the Met would be better than hourly through, but I guess it's debatable.

 

[Kite159]

And no doubt (knowing Chiltern) those Aylesbury - London trains when they drop to hourly during the day will be 2 coach units so by the time they reach Amersham they will be cosy.

 

[nw1]

Sorry, yes, I was looking at Saturday for some reason.

I expect there's very low demand on weekday mid mornings. It's primarily a commuter route. I guess that frees up some units.

I guess it would add some complexity to diagrams, as these afternoon workings would (presumably) have to come out of the depot ECS.

That said, I'm wondering also whether ramping the service up after 1300 would fit an approximately 1300-2100 driver shift, given that services tend to wind down after around 2100.

I do note for example on some SWT CWNs from the 00s that I have, there are occasionally random-looking workings to and from Wimbledon Park in the middle of the day at Waterloo, when service A comes in, goes out to Wimbledon Park, than an identical unit formation comes in from Wimbledon Park at the same time and forms service B. Presumably this is related to driver shifts.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I guess it would add some complexity to diagrams, as these afternoon workings would (presumably) have to come out of the depot ECS.

Or would they be used on peak trains into Marylebone thus making them unavailable shoulder peak?

Into and out of Aylesbury depot is easier than most others as it's basically at the end of the platform - much more European in concept.

 

[sammyg901]

Taking the Stoke Mandeville times it's looks like 3 x services that are removed (towards London anyway) - the 1153, 1253 and 1353. This doesn't seem hugely unreasonable , most people have travelled into London by then and it's during the working day for the local schools. A little inconvenient if you've gone into Aylesbury for shopping for example but I'd imagine this market is very small, car is king in these parts!

No point running an Amersham shuttle, by the time you've connected & trundled on an all stations Met service you'd pretty much be caught up by the service behind

Can't imagine this is being done to save units at such an off peak time there are plenty available, presumably more aimed at fuel / miles on the units and maybe helps with driver diagrams somewhere along the way.

The service via Little Kimble becomes an erratic shuttle just to Princes Risborough running every 60-90 minutes with around half a dozen through trains mostly at peak times.

Through services are now seemingly only when they need to get stock to/from Aylesbury - extreme ends of the day with one service towards London in the afternoon. The off-peak shuttle is erratic as you say - certainly the worse service this line will have had that I can remember. Most people locally do tend to drive to Princes Risborough though anyway and I imagine that'll just increase now that there aren't any peak through services.

 

[jhy44]

All seems quite reasonable to me.
I use the line quite a lot to travel from London to Bromsgrove post-Covid due to the collapse of Avanti's service and advance/reasonable fare availability; with the exception of the first weekday evening off-peaks out of Marylebone, the trains are often very lightly loaded north of High Wycombe in my experience. As much as the 2tph to Birmingham service benefits me I think it could go down to 1tph north of Banbury for most of the day and it not cause too many issues in terms of service availability (given the XC services) or overcrowding.

The Kidderminster through trains were never regular anyway, so I'm sure locals who travel to London are already used to having to change trains most of the day. The change at Snow Hill or Moor Street is an easy one too, often same platform or cross-platform, I don't think this will discourage people from travelling unless perhaps one had severe mobility issues which made simple same-platform changes very difficult. Most people I know from Bromsgrove/Redditch use Chiltern to get to London by train (and either drive to Warwick Parkway, or train and walk between New Street and Moor Street) So Kiddy folk will still be laughing with the ease of their same-station interchanges to get to Marylebone compared to most of the neighbouring large towns in this part of the world.

Sad to see the loco hauling scaled back. The working times never really worked for me, but the one time I did get it it was a very enjoyable/smooth journey. Again the train was at about 20% capacity though so it did seem a bit of a poor use of resources.

This doesn't seem like an example of "DfT managed decline", but rather slight reduction in frequencies that is proportionate to the reduction in revenues and passenger numbers, which as we know are most pronounced on the SE's commuter lines like this one. Unlike for example the ridiculous 33% reduction in the peak time frequency of trains to both Bromsgrove and Redditch...

 

[nw1]

Don't forget there is a complete timetable recast from May on the Chiltern and the snow Hill lines making clockface timetables out of MYB.

As an aside I thought it had been clockface for many years, ever since Turbos were introduced if not before?

 

[Vanmanyo]

All seems quite reasonable to me.
I use the line quite a lot to travel from London to Bromsgrove post-Covid due to the collapse of Avanti's service and advance/reasonable fare availability; with the exception of the first weekday evening off-peaks out of Marylebone, the trains are often very lightly loaded north of High Wycombe in my experience. As much as the 2tph to Birmingham service benefits me I think it could go down to 1tph north of Banbury for most of the day and it not cause too many issues in terms of service availability (given the XC services) or overcrowding.

The Kidderminster through trains were never regular anyway, so I'm sure locals who travel to London are already used to having to change trains most of the day. The change at Snow Hill or Moor Street is an easy one too, often same platform or cross-platform, I don't think this will discourage people from travelling unless perhaps one had severe mobility issues which made simple same-platform changes very difficult. Most people I know from Bromsgrove/Redditch use Chiltern to get to London by train (and either drive to Warwick Parkway, or train and walk between New Street and Moor Street) So Kiddy folk will still be laughing with the ease of their same-station interchanges to get to Marylebone compared to most of the neighbouring large towns in this part of the world.

Sad to see the loco hauling scaled back. The working times never really worked for me, but the one time I did get it it was a very enjoyable/smooth journey. Again the train was at about 20% capacity though so it did seem a bit of a poor use of resources.

This doesn't seem like an example of "DfT managed decline", but rather slight reduction in frequencies that is proportionate to the reduction in revenues and passenger numbers, which as we know are most pronounced on the SE's commuter lines like this one. Unlike for example the ridiculous 33% reduction in the peak time frequency of trains to both Bromsgrove and Redditch...

I think you do make some great points. I would say that the Increase in Birmingham services will mean less carriages, and so will the lowering of diagrams for loco hauled. I think overcrowding will be more present north of Banbury than it already is. Ideally all London-Birmingham services need to be at least 4 carriages and 6/7 in peak. I struggle to find seats out of Marylebone heading north on weekends so have to wait late to get a loco stock, as declassified business zone is my only chance of a seat and a good journey. Hopefully the overcrowding won't be as bad as I fear and they sort it, even if it means bringing some networkers up here more.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Through services are now seemingly only when they need to get stock to/from Aylesbury - extreme ends of the day with one service towards London in the afternoon. The off-peak shuttle is erratic as you say - certainly the worse service this line will have had that I can remember.

Though exactly the same number of trains southbound (one fewer northbound), just some squashed closer together than others and some long gaps.

 

[Route115?]

To be honest, the Chiltern timetable has never been great for intermediate journeys - a combination of infrastructure constraints of a two track railway and a history of - in my time there, over twenty years ago - spending too much time trying to compete with other TOCs and not considering these intermediate flows. That said the service from major cities to London did improve considerably in the early days of the TOC.

Looking at the timetable:

Why are there two hour gaps in the West Ruislip service midday - the cost of an additional stop must be miniscule. It would not have been allowable under the Passenger Service Requirement in my day, but of course, the DfT can issue derrogations.

Hourly gaps in to Met Line service in the middle of the day are grim and very bad news for shift workers. Again how much will this save?

I also wonder why there are two empty movements from Stourbridge Jn depot to Moor St at 06:40 (arr 07:13) and 07:13 (arr 07:43). What are the savings in running ECS?

I don't dispute that there may need to be peak reductions as traffic has declined - it may well be possible to reduce the number of units leased. Withdrawing the off-peak MYB - Gerrards X service and putting additional stops in other services is fairly painless. However removing off-peak stops leaving long gaps between services is certainly not the way to go. With some exceptions such as Bicester Town tourist traffic off peak patronage has recovered and needs to be encouraged.

 

[sammyg901]

As an aside I thought it had been clockface for many years, ever since Turbos were introduced if not before?

They made a lot of adjustments to balance capacity across services in the peak so the pattern has ended up almost random over the years. The new timetable has a perfectly clockface timetable in the peak on the "mainline" for nearly all destinations - e.g. Oxford is 15/45 past, Beaconsfield is 19/49 past etc

 

[nw1]

They made a lot of adjustments to balance capacity across services in the peak so the pattern has ended up almost random over the years. The new timetable has a perfectly clockface timetable in the peak on the "mainline" for nearly all destinations - e.g. Oxford is 15/45 past, Beaconsfield is 19/49 past etc

Ah ok, sorry I was thinking of the off-peak timetable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They made a lot of adjustments to balance capacity across services in the peak so the pattern has ended up almost random over the years. The new timetable has a perfectly clockface timetable in the peak on the "mainline" for nearly all destinations - e.g. Oxford is 15/45 past, Beaconsfield is 19/49 past etc

It's close to clockface but not perfect, e.g. which trains run to Snow Hill seems to be random, and there's one random Banbury terminator in the middle of the day, plus some are one minute out. The WCML has managed to go totally clockface by contrast (other than very early/late) - the peak extras are just laid on top - this is much better.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I'll be interested to see the stock allocations for Oxford. When the Marylebone - Oxford service was first introduced five years or so ago, it was pretty much solidly 168 on almost every service, with possibly one 172/165 a day. Turbos were very rare.

Nowadays, since the past year or two, 165s seem to work the vast majority of the route.

 

[bramling]

Taking the Stoke Mandeville times it's looks like 3 x services that are removed (towards London anyway) - the 1153, 1253 and 1353. This doesn't seem hugely unreasonable , most people have travelled into London by then and it's during the working day for the local schools. A little inconvenient if you've gone into Aylesbury for shopping for example but I'd imagine this market is very small, car is king in these parts!

I wouldn’t say it’s particularly reasonable, those services would presumably have been of some value to shift workers.

 

[nw1]

It's close to clockface but not perfect, e.g. which trains run to Snow Hill seems to be random, and there's one random Banbury terminator in the middle of the day, plus some are one minute out. The WCML has managed to go totally clockface by contrast (other than very early/late) - the peak extras are just laid on top - this is much better.

I think @sammyg901 was referring to the peak. From what I make out, there are actually two Banbury terminators, at 1036 and 1236 - so a similar pattern to the "missing" services to Aylesbury.