Chiltern tickets from Harrow-on-the-Hill

[RichHuBB]

Hello, I’d like to purchase a day return, for myself and family, from Harrow-on-the-Hill to Great Missenden, using the direct Chiltern line train, applying my Family & Friends railcard. How do I do this?

The only machines at the station are TfL, which as far as I’m aware do not allow purchase or pick up of Chiltern tickets, and it doesn’t appear e-tickets are available either.

Help much appreciated. Thank you.

 

[Watershed]

I believe you should be able to buy the ticket you want from the ticket machine at Harrow-on-the-Hill, unless I'm mistaken.

You are correct that eTickets aren't offered; this is because TfL veto the enablement of eTickets for most journeys that involve passing through barriers managed by them, as they have chosen not to invest in barcode scanners. Ticket machines at Underground-managed stations generally don't allow you to pick up tickets bought online/through an app, either.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Whilst it's not ideal, Harrow & Wealdstone has ticket machines where you can collect tickets bought online.

I'm unsure whether London Underground ticket machines offer Family & Friends Railcard discounts off the top of my head, having never had cause to need to buy a ticket with the discount applied.

 

[RichHuBB]

Thanks both, yes, the TfL ticket machines do now sell Chilterns tickets (but don’t allow collection), however, they do not allow you to select Family & Friends rail card. All other railcards are available, but Family and Friends is greyed out.

Harrow & Wealdstone is a two mile round trip out of my way, so not really a sensible option when looking to purchase and travel on the day.

It is very frustrating that the (valid) ticket I want to buy is not available at the station, and there seems to be no way round it.

 

[Iggy12a]

Have you tried entering one adult and one child to the selection screen to see if the Friends & Family button is then available?

 

[RichHuBB]

Yes I have - same issue. Clearly a bug in the software.

 

[Joe Paxton]

If the LU TVMs* are failing to offer the ticket needed, that needs to be sorted. Perhaps the best approach to get this dealt with would be to contact Chiltern Railways and have them pursue LU to get it fixed.

(OP - just to check, you weren't trying to buy these tickets during the morning peak time?)

In the meantime I'd be tempted to select another Railcard on the TVM for the discount, and be ready to explain why the discount on the ticket doesn't match the Railcard held.

Under this thinking, selecting the Network Railcard discount would work for journeys at the weekend, but the £13 minimum fare kiboshes that for weekday journeys.
Selecting Veterans or Disabled Railcards would work as well, but I can imagine any resulting inquisition might be stronger.
Regardless, if one was to do this you'd have to ensure you were travelling within the T&Cs of the F&F Railcard.

* Ticket Vending Machines

 

[ainsworth74]

In the meantime I'd be tempted to select another Railcard on the TVM for the discount, and be ready to explain why the discount on the ticket doesn't match the Railcard held.

I know what you mean but I think it's worth noting that this does, technically, leave the OP (and family) vulnerable to a Penalty Fare or even prosecution. Ludicrous I know but technically the tickets aren't valid as the correct Railcard isn't held.

I think the only "safe" way to proceed is to buy the tickets without the discount and submit then, a picture of the TVM with the greyed out F&F button to TfL (as the retailer) for a refund of the difference. Which is also incredibly sub-optimal as it will tie up the funds potentially for several weeks but does mean that you're likely to get PF'd or worse.

Perhaps a pre-emptive complaint to TfL? It seems clear that it must be a bug within their software that needs fixing rather than a deliberate policy choice?

 

[CyrusWuff]

If the LU TVMs* are failing to offer the ticket needed, that needs to be sorted. Perhaps the best approach to get this dealt with would be to contact Chiltern Railways and have them pursue LU to get it fixed.

It's probably easier to cut out the middle man and go direct to TfL Customer Services.

 

[Railguy1]

Went to have a look and yes, it is (still) greyed out.

 

[philthetube]

If the ticket available is not available at your departure station you should buy at the first opportunity, Take a photo of the machine with Family and friends greyed out just to cover yourself.

Your only problem may be getting through the barriers at Harrow,

It is probably worth asking Chiltern what you should do, make sure that they understand that ticket collection is not available at Harrow, probably worth emailing TFL as well'


However, if staff cause you problems immediately ask for the station supervisor and see what he/she says, ask the supervisor to check with superiors if they are difficult, get staff numbers of all you deal with'

 

[bluegoblin7]

I've asked friends who work at Harrow for their take on this, and will report back in due course.

But at first glance this seems to be an anomaly created between the differences between LUL and NR fares - it won't be the first, nor the last. Railcards generally have different validity on LUL, and this includes - for the Friends and Family Railcard - only being valid at weekends. It is however still valid on NR services (of course), including in this case. LUL machines should sell NR-style 'point to point' tickets for these routes, but there are sometimes issues with the data (including, most recently, it being cheaper to buy such a ticket from LUL than NR ).

You'll absolutely want to complain directly to LUL about this issue, and Chiltern will no doubt direct you there anyway, if it turns out to be the case (and I have no reason to doubt that!).

If station staff offer me any useful workaround I'll also post it here.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I've asked friends who work at Harrow for their take on this, and will report back in due course.

If station staff offer me any useful workaround I'll also post it here.

Unless it's changed in recent years, LU ticket machines don't print the specific Railcard discount that's been applied on the ticket, just that a Railcard discount has been applied.

Assuming that's still the case, the most obvious workaround would be to choose a Gold Card discount instead (given the £13 minimum fare on weekdays that applies to a Network Railcard.) The discount level and maximum group size is the same as a Family & Friends Railcard.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Assuming that's still the case, the most obvious workaround would be to choose a Gold Card discount instead (given the £13 minimum fare on weekdays that applies to a Network Railcard.) The discount level and maximum group size is the same as a Family & Friends Railcard.

Could that then cause a potential issue of it being claimed that the 'wrong' railcard was being used?

 

[bluegoblin7]

Unless it's changed in recent years, LU ticket machines don't print the specific Railcard discount that's been applied on the ticket, just that a Railcard discount has been applied.

Assuming that's still the case, the most obvious workaround would be to choose a Gold Card discount instead (given the £13 minimum fare on weekdays that applies to a Network Railcard.) The discount level and maximum group size is the same as a Family & Friends Railcard.

This is certainly my recollection, but it’s a loooooong time since I’ve bought a ticket of any kind from an LUL POM (Passenger Operated Machine).

 

[Haywain]

Railcards generally have different validity on LUL, and this includes - for the Friends and Family Railcard - only being valid at weekends.

It's slightly off topic, but I'm curious about the suggestion that TfL can change the T&Cs of National Rail railcards.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Could that then cause a potential issue of it being claimed that the 'wrong' railcard was being used?

Technically yes, but it would need a magstripe reader (or a gateline set to reject Gold Card discounted tickets) to be uncovered. That also assumes that LU POMs encode the correct status code to the magstripe, rather than a generic one.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Apr 2025 ==

It's slightly off topic, but I'm curious about the suggestion that TfL can change the T&Cs of National Rail railcards.

Quite. Whilst a Family & Friends Railcard discount isn't available on LU Single and Return tickets, nor for Oyster Pay As You Go, it is available for Off-Peak Day Travelcards.

 

[Watershed]

Railcards generally have different validity on LUL, and this includes - for the Friends and Family Railcard - only being valid at weekends.

Do you have a reference for this? I am not aware of any such restrictions. Yes, you can't add a Family Railcard to an Oyster card but that is a separate issue (you can't add a Two Together Railcard either).

 

[bluegoblin7]

The various T&R books will be definitive (all internal, but maybe FOIable) but I’ve just passed along what (very knowledgeable) station CSMs have told me, in good faith. It’s some years since I needed to know this stuff myself.