Class 165 on service to Great Malvern

[TT-ONR-NRN]

So im guessing you would prefer the train to just be cancelled & either wait for the next one, which may also be short formed or just prefer a bus instead.
Unfortunately due to the policies of this government (DfT) GWR are short of stock at present.

No, I’d just prefer people weren’t condescended for being rightfully unhappy with such changes.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

No, I’d just prefer people weren’t condescended for being rightfully unhappy with such changes.

To be honest, as someone who actually lives on the Cotswold Line, I would far prefer a Turbotised service to the torrent of cancellations we have had recently. I think most locals would agree. The irony is that the daily evening Turbo service (the Didcot–Moreton Halts train) seems to be among the most frequently cancelled.

 

[RailWonderer]

I recommend the national electronic sectional appendix for one of the most accurate references, an incredibly useful tool once you figure out how to use them.

National Electronic Sectional Appendix - Network Rail

The National Electronic Sectional Appendix (NESA) contains detailed information useful to operators about network capability, as well as a considerable amount of other data. NESA is an electronic data source with significant advantages over a hard copy publication. These include: Across the...

www.networkrail.co.uk

Thanks, this is great!

 

[Horizon22]

What proportion of the passengers are doing Paddington - Great Malvern, though?
As a regular user of both types of traction, the only reasons the IET would get my vote are that it’s less likely to be full and standing and can exploit full line speed over the entire route. Other than that, not much in it (which is a pretty damning verdict on the ambience of IETs).

Not many, but a Turbo would be full & standing to Oxford on a weekend. Most 5 car IETs are & sometimes even the 9 cars (slightly quieter at the front of the train, but hardly).

 

[Mark J]

After seeing the 1W51 1650 London Paddington to Great Malvern train got subbed for an 165 3 car on real time trains (Link here), I got spooked and decided to take an 387 to Didcot and change there (I am heading to Oxford).

How on earth do they think it is acceptable to sub a 80X for an 165? To Oxford I understand but Great Malvern?

I can't believe that GWR run the Portsmouth to Cardiff Central service with a 166.

Especially when it is the only service to Cardiff Central from Bristol Temple Meads.

Yesterday the 166 was full and standing at Bristol when it arrived, let alone trying to get the crowds into it already waiting on the platform.

That route needs the five carriage IETs.

People forget Oxford - Malvern is a very slow trundle along mostly single track railway. It's a glorified branch line in effect.

When did you last travel on the Cotsold Line? It is only single east of Charlbury to Wolvercote Junction and East of Worcestershire Parkway to Worcester Shrub Hill.

Even then, I believe plans are in place to re-double the Charlbury to Wolvercote section.

I really think Portsmouth to Cardiff should have something better but I suspect that not that many passengers use it for the full journey, unlike long distance services out of London.

I also noticed yesterday that the 'West Country' 166 are still sporting the mauve and blue seats interiors, with First Great Western branding.

Even though the exteriors are branded with GWR in the green colour scheme.

Clearly little money was spent on them, when they moved west.

Even the Marlow branch ones have been refreshed, with new floors and seat covers.

 

[jimm]

I can't believe that GWR run the Portsmouth to Cardiff Central service with a 166.

Especially when it is the only service to Cardiff Central from Bristol Temple Meads.

Yesterday the 166 was full and standing at Bristol when it arrived, let alone trying to get the crowds into it already waiting on the platform.

That route needs the five carriage IETs.


When did you last travel on the Cotsold Line? It is only single east of Charlbury to Wolvercote Junction and East of Worcestershire Parkway to Worcester Shrub Hill.

Even then, I believe plans are in place to re-double the Charlbury to Wolvercote section.

Why can't you believe it?

GWR's shortage of rolling stock is well known, as is the ditching of the plan to put 769s on Reading-Gatwick to release more Turbos to Bristol, that would have meant GWR might actually be able to reliably provide the five-car Turbo formations that are supposed to operate Cardiff-Portsmouth.

Where exactly do you think GWR is going to find any five-car IETs from to operate Cardiff-Portsmouth? Or are you yet another of the people posting on this forum who apparently still seem to believe that Turbos are more than adequate rolling stock for GWR's Oxford and Cotswold Line services? Even if they weren't adequate in terms of passenger capacity much of the time more than 20 years ago and are a fat lot of use operationally on a main line they would have to share with 125mph expresses out to Didcot.

There are proposals to reinstate more double track at both ends of the Cotswold Line - but there are no actual plans to do anything of the sort. Hardly surprising in the current financial climate.

 

[Mark J]

Why can't you believe it?

GWR's shortage of rolling stock is well known, as is the ditching of the plan to put 769s on Reading-Gatwick to release more Turbos to Bristol, that would have meant GWR might actually be able to reliably provide the five-car Turbo formations that are supposed to operate Cardiff-Portsmouth.

Where exactly do you think GWR is going to find any five-car IETs from to operate Cardiff-Portsmouth? Or are you yet another of the people posting on this forum who apparently still seem to believe that Turbos are more than adequate rolling stock for GWR's Oxford and Cotswold Line services? Even if they weren't adequate in terms of passenger capacity much of the time more than 20 years ago and are a fat lot of use operationally on a main line they would have to share with 125mph expresses out to Didcot.

There are proposals to reinstate more double track at both ends of the Cotswold Line - but there are no actual plans to do anything of the sort. Hardly surprising in the current financial climate.

Please don't stick words in my mouth.

I did not once say that 166's should be operated on Cotswold Line services.

I merely said that I can't believe that GWR run Portsnouth to Cardiff with 166's, especially when parts of the route are very busy.

From my experience, Bristol TM to Cardiff Central.

 

[newtownmgr]

I can't believe that GWR run the Portsmouth to Cardiff Central service with a 166.

Especially when it is the only service to Cardiff Central from Bristol Temple Meads.

Yesterday the 166 was full and standing at Bristol when it arrived, let alone trying to get the crowds into it already waiting on the platform.

That route needs the five carriage IETs.


When did you last travel on the Cotsold Line? It is only single east of Charlbury to Wolvercote Junction and East of Worcestershire Parkway to Worcester Shrub Hill.

Even then, I believe plans are in place to re-double the Charlbury to Wolvercote section.


I also noticed yesterday that the 'West Country' 166 are still sporting the mauve and blue seats interiors, with First Great Western branding.

Even though the exteriors are branded with GWR in the green colour scheme.

Clearly little money was spent on them, when they moved west.

Even the Marlow branch ones have been refreshed, with new floors and seat covers.

It’s single from just north of Evesham to Norton Jcn, just after Worcs Parkway.

 

[brad465]

One thing the Networker Turbos and their 3rd rail Networker cousins seem to have in common, is they were both designed for Metro/Suburban working, but often have stepped in to do longer distance workings in their operating areas.

 

[jimm]

Please don't stick words in my mouth.

I did not once say that 166's should be operated on Cotswold Line services.

I merely said that I can't believe that GWR run Portsnouth to Cardiff with 166's, especially when parts of the route are very busy.

From my experience, Bristol TM to Cardiff Central.

166s were in regular use until 2017 on Oxford and Cotswold Line services (including, as noted above, runs to Hereford every bit as long as Cardiff-Portsmouth) despite not being up to the job long before that - yet some people posting on this forum apparently seem to think that there was no need to replace them, even if FGW first attempted this back in 2004 using Class 180s

If Cardiff-Portsmouth needs IETs - your words - where is GWR is going find them? The five-cars are all committed to other services.

No one is denying that something needs to be done about Cardiff-Portsmouth but unless and until GWR gets some new trains to replace its dmus, or is at least allowed by the Government to take on some Welsh 158s in the interim, then I'm afraid that whatever Turbos or 158s that can be made to run each day will be what the route gets. Completion at long last of the Turbo refresh programme should offer some marginal relief, as sets will no longer be out of circulation at Wolverton works.

One thing the Networker Turbos and their 3rd rail Networker cousins seem to have in common, is they were both designed for Metro/Suburban working, but often have stepped in to do longer distance workings in their operating areas.

The Class 166 was created specifically for longer-distance work - Paddington to Oxford, the Cotswold Line, Banbury and Stratford-upon-Avon, and to Newbury and Bedwyn, by adapting the Class 165 design with first class compartments provided at both ends of the train, some 2+2 seating with tables in the centre cars, and a so-called air conditioning system.

 

[RailWonderer]

When did you last travel on the Cotsold Line? It is only single east of Charlbury to Wolvercote Junction and East of Worcestershire Parkway to Worcester Shrub Hill.

Even then, I believe plans are in place to re-double the Charlbury to Wolvercote section.

Did Oxford - Charlbury last year and haven't done it fully in a decade. Hadn't checked the NR sectional appendix. I always remembered it as being slow but then again I wasn't using the SR, for all I know there could have been a track problem when I was on it.

 

[JJmoogle]

Blimey that's a blast from the (fairly) recent past, it's preferrable to a cancellation I guess but I'd be needing significant refreshment at the end of having to be doing that again

The Class 166 was created specifically for longer-distance work - Paddington to Oxford, the Cotswold Line, Banbury and Stratford-upon-Avon, and to Newbury and Bedwyn, by adapting the Class 165 design with first class compartments provided at both ends of the train, some 2+2 seating with tables in the centre cars, and a so-called air conditioning system.

As an incredibly regular user of the line the 166 seemed perfectly acceptable about 20 odd years ago (it was always hellish if a 165 ended up covering it even then) but the absolutely stonking growth in passanger numbers made them rather untenable pretty much all day fairly quickly into the new millenium and it's only grown since. It's quite astonishing sometimes sitting on a packed 5 car IET and thinking it could really do with being a 9 car given how short a time it seems we had two HSTs a day.

Did Oxford - Charlbury last year and haven't done it fully in a decade. Hadn't checked the NR sectional appendix. I always remembered it as being slow but then again I wasn't using the SR, for all I know there could have been a track problem when I was on it.

Must have been unless you ended up on the halts train, Oxford to Charlbury is almost continuous 100mph running

 

[Mark J]

166s were in regular use until 2017 on Oxford and Cotswold Line services (including, as noted above, runs to Hereford every bit as long as Cardiff-Portsmouth) despite not being up to the job long before that - yet some people posting on this forum apparently seem to think that there was no need to replace them, even if FGW first attempted this back in 2004 using Class 180s

If Cardiff-Portsmouth needs IETs - your words - where is GWR is going find them? The five-cars are all committed to other services.

No one is denying that something needs to be done about Cardiff-Portsmouth but unless and until GWR gets some new trains to replace its dmus, or is at least allowed by the Government to take on some Welsh 158s in the interim, then I'm afraid that whatever Turbos or 158s that can be made to run each day will be what the route gets. Completion at long last of the Turbo refresh programme should offer some marginal relief, as sets will no longer be out of circulation at Wolverton works.


The Class 166 was created specifically for longer-distance work - Paddington to Oxford, the Cotswold Line, Banbury and Stratford-upon-Avon, and to Newbury and Bedwyn, by adapting the Class 165 design with first class compartments provided at both ends of the train, some 2+2 seating with tables in the centre cars, and a so-called air conditioning system.

I made my feelings pretty clear at the time on here, that I thought the nine/ten carriage order of IETS wasn't enough.

How true that is proving to be now.

If GWR could get hold on more nine/ten carriage IETS for long distance routes in future, then the five carriage units could be cascaded to routes such as Portsmouth to Cardiff.

As Hitachi are still providing new units to other operators, is there not scope to extend that order to provide more units for GWR?

 

[Clarence Yard]

Right, hopefully for the last time, here we go.

IET units don’t fit on the Pompey-Cardiff route. Quite apart from the fact that route clearance would be very difficult, given my experience of clearing Turbos on that route, the door cycle times would reduce the timetable to chaos. They really are best on IC workings, not on services with frequent stops.

There is no hope of getting extra units on the back of others orders either. Those options do not exist.

Until such time as any potential cl.175 deal is signed, there is no hope of getting extra stock onto GWR to replace the HST sets and boost formations on the services that need 90mph stock. The cl.158 units at TfW have been earmarked to go elsewhere and won’t be available in time anyway.

So what GWR are doing is stretching their available fleet to the limit and that is leading to short forms, both planned and unplanned. When replacement stock is made available to GWR (remember it is the DfT that make these decisions) they can dump the remaining HSTs, put the IET units back on existing IC services to boost formations and restore services such as Pompey-Cardiff to 4 and 5 coach trains with, probably, a mix of cl.158 and Turbo units.

So, if a Cotswold unit fails overnight in that future, chances are that a IET will replace it, not a Turbo.

 

[Sly Old Fox]

It's Wolvercot all the way to Ascott then Moreton - Worcestershire Parkway single track, with the stations acting as passing loops. Some sections might be 90-100mph but a lot of it is substantially slower than 125mph Reading - Exeter.

None of Reading to Exeter is 125mph

 

[mangyiscute]

I'm going to be controversial here and say that had I been a booked passenger on either of those rides to Great Malvern or indeed Exeter I would have thought that my birthday in Christmas which are only seven or so weeks apart had come early, for me personally a turbo no matter how cozy and inferior some may find it would for me be like having a first-class ticket on the Orient Express compared to an IET which I hate with an extreme passion and go out of my way to avoid, although granted this is becoming ever more complicated

I mean if you want to stand up on the train, be my guest, because you'd have to get super lucky to get a seat on a 3 car turbo doing London to Oxford on a sunday - currently the 5 car iets struggle with capacity. Although I wouldn't have thuoght the standing experience would be much different on a turbo compared to an iet

 

[Blindtraveler]

Having stood from Salisbury to Bristol last year I was actually quite impressed with how good the ride quality was certainly compared to the IET that I rode later in the day, on sufferance it must be added as the working I was chasing was booked 387

 

[Bluejays]

I can't believe that GWR run the Portsmouth to Cardiff Central service with a 166.

Especially when it is the only service to Cardiff Central from Bristol Temple Meads.

Yesterday the 166 was full and standing at Bristol when it arrived, let alone trying to get the crowds into it already waiting on the platform.

That route needs the five carriage IETs.


When did you last travel on the Cotsold Line? It is only single east of Charlbury to Wolvercote Junction and East of Worcestershire Parkway to Worcester Shrub Hill.

Even then, I believe plans are in place to re-double the Charlbury to Wolvercote section.


I also noticed yesterday that the 'West Country' 166 are still sporting the mauve and blue seats interiors, with First Great Western branding.

Even though the exteriors are branded with GWR in the green colour scheme.

Clearly little money was spent on them, when they moved west.

Even the Marlow branch ones have been refreshed, with new floors and seat covers.

Just a couple of things to clarify . The Pompey to Cardiff isn't the only service between temple meads and Cardiff. There are also hourly services from the west country, which often do use the 5 car iets that you suggest the route needs.

As for the interiors, it's a mix of refurbished and unrefurbished trains operating the route.

 

[Mark J]

I mean if you want to stand up on the train, be my guest, because you'd have to get super lucky to get a seat on a 3 car turbo doing London to Oxford on a sunday - currently the 5 car iets struggle with capacity. Although I wouldn't have thuoght the standing experience would be much different on a turbo compared to an iet

On occasions you are lucky to get a seat on a nine/ten carriage IET going to Oxford, on a Saturday and Sunday!

 

[mangyiscute]

On occasions you are lucky to get a seat on a nine/ten carriage IET going to Oxford, on a Saturday and Sunday!

I'm hoping when they finally electrify Didcot to Oxford, they explore the possibility of running 3tph at least to Oxford, as the demand is certainly there, and they'd be able to use 387s or similar (I'm assuming they'll change most London to Oxford services to 8 coach 387s, although obviously the Cotswold line services will still be 80xs). Furthermore, they could then try and change the departure times at Reading which currently are almost on top of the cross country departures (especially when the xx:45 returns hourly)

 

[Mark J]

It may be this:

Coupling: Rail-crazy pair get married on moving train

Leah Anderson and Vince Smith became husband and wife between London and Reading.

www.bbc.co.uk

GWR also says on twitter that this is taking place today on board an IET. As the service noted in the OP is an unadvertised express it's probably that one, perhaps someone could confirm for certain?

I'm hoping when they finally electrify Didcot to Oxford, they explore the possibility of running 3tph at least to Oxford, as the demand is certainly there, and they'd be able to use 387s or similar (I'm assuming they'll change most London to Oxford services to 8 coach 387s, although obviously the Cotswold line services will still be 80xs). Furthermore, they could then try and change the departure times at Reading which currently are almost on top of the cross country departures (especially when the xx:45 returns hourly)

The XC and GWR departure times from Reading on a Sunday are a lottery.

Last week it was at 14 (XC) and 15 minutes (GWR) in the hour.

Yesterday it was at 52 (GWR) and 14 (XC).

Seems to vary from week to week - on GWR.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Just a couple of things to clarify . The Pompey to Cardiff isn't the only service between temple meads and Cardiff. There are also hourly services from the west country, which often do use the 5 car iets that you suggest the route needs.

As for the interiors, it's a mix of refurbished and unrefurbished trains operating the route.

The ironic thing is that the IETs are on the slower service of the two. Calling at Patchway and Severn Tunnel Junction is an enormous drag when returning to Cardiff from Bristol Airport at goodness-knows-what o'clock.

And many times during disruption, strike or engineering works, London Cardiff services are axed and you're sent to Bristol to change onto an hourly shuttle to Cardiff, which more often than not is just a 166, and in these circumstances packed with London travellers too.

 

[mangyiscute]

The XC and GWR departure times from Reading on a Sunday are a lottery.

Last week it was at 14 (XC) and 15 minutes (GWR) in the hour.

Yesterday it was at 52 (GWR) and 14 (XC).

Seems to vary from week to week - on GWR.

I think they are meant to have 2tph London to Oxford, leaving reading at roughly xx:14 and xx:52, with the xx:14 continuing to Worcester and beyond. However, they often only run 1tph for various reasons, usually due to engineering work shutting some of the lines between Reading and London. In yesterday's case, the line was shut past Charlbury, so they had more flexibility with the single-track sections on the Cotswold line and hence could run the train at 52. But yeah when its 1tph and it leaves reading at the exact same time as the XC it is so daft.

The ironic thing is that the IETs are on the slower service of the two. Calling at Patchway and Severn Tunnel Junction is an enormous drag when returning to Cardiff from Bristol Airport at goodness-knows-what o'clock.

Although the actual time difference is just 5 mins, so it really doesn't matter.
Also, worth noting that when searching for journeys from Bristol to Cardiff, there are also good options changing at Bristol Parkway, and while I know its not as convinient as a direct service this almost makes the service 4tph at fairly even intervals, at least in this direction - very different to the 1tph single 166 that was suggested earlier!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Also, worth noting that when searching for journeys from Bristol to Cardiff, there are also good options changing at Bristol Parkway, and while I know its not as convinient as a direct service this almost makes the service 4tph at fairly even intervals, at least in this direction - very different to the 1tph single 166 that was suggested earlier!

By that argument, there are 5tph LNER from King's Cross to Edinburgh, because there are interchange options on all five ICEC departures... it's hardly a fair argument. It's 2tph, 1tph of which is very often 2-3 coaches.

 

[Mark J]

I think they are meant to have 2tph London to Oxford, leaving reading at roughly xx:14 and xx:52, with the xx:14 continuing to Worcester and beyond. However, they often only run 1tph for various reasons, usually due to engineering work shutting some of the lines between Reading and London. In yesterday's case, the line was shut past Charlbury, so they had more flexibility with the single-track sections on the Cotswold line and hence could run the train at 52. But yeah when its 1tph and it leaves reading at the exact same time as the XC it is so daft.


Although the actual time difference is just 5 mins, so it really doesn't matter.
Also, worth noting that when searching for journeys from Bristol to Cardiff, there are also good options changing at Bristol Parkway, and while I know its not as convinient as a direct service this almost makes the service 4tph at fairly even intervals, at least in this direction - very different to the 1tph single 166 that was suggested earlier!

XC don't seem to run a Sunday service northwards from Reading between 11:14 and 13:14.

I arrived yesterday expecting a 12:15 GWR service, only to find it was 12:52!


‐--------

Don't people miss the 'good old days' of traveling on a packed out 165/166 from Paddington, or Reading, to far flung destination such as Newbury, Bedwyn, or Oxford at 90mph. If you were lucky, to Worcester, or Hereford. With all the windows open for 'air conditioning'.

 

[ollie_hunt1660]

I'm hoping when they finally electrify Didcot to Oxford, they explore the possibility of running 3tph at least to Oxford, as the demand is certainly there, and they'd be able to use 387s or similar (I'm assuming they'll change most London to Oxford services to 8 coach 387s, although obviously the Cotswold line services will still be 80xs). Furthermore, they could then try and change the departure times at Reading which currently are almost on top of the cross country departures (especially when the xx:45 returns hourly)

Once the Oxford remodeling is completed, I believe they want to extend the electrification to Hanbourgh as well to remove some congestion at Oxford

 

[mangyiscute]

By that argument, there are 5tph LNER from King's Cross to Edinburgh, because there are interchange options on all five ICEC departures... it's hardly a fair argument. It's 2tph, 1tph of which is very often 2-3 coaches.

Well it depends on how convenient the changes are and how much time it adds to the journey. In this case, the journey time is still the same, so yes it certainly counts. If you're changing onto either the same train you could've got direct or one that gets in later than a direct one that left after your first train, then no, it doesn't count as an additional tph, which is the case for those king's cross to edinburgh trains you're suggesting.

 

[Bluejays]

The ironic thing is that the IETs are on the slower service of the two. Calling at Patchway and Severn Tunnel Junction is an enormous drag when returning to Cardiff from Bristol Airport at goodness-knows-what o'clock.

And many times during disruption, strike or engineering works, London Cardiff services are axed and you're sent to Bristol to change onto an hourly shuttle to Cardiff, which more often than not is just a 166, and in these circumstances packed with London travellers too.

With the ex Taunton's I find it's the waiting times at filton and patchway, rather than the additional stops at patchway and Severn tunnel themselves that seem to cause the crawl. Guessing it's down to timings to avoid conflicting with movements via parkway, but I'm sure there are others who'd have a better idea of that than me.

Certainly do agree that the crawl through Bristol and surrounds can be a tad frustrating, especially if you've been on before temple meads and stopped at parson st and bedminster aswell