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Class 321/317 cascade

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GospelOak117

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Hi all i have just joined and thought id get started with something that i have been trying to find out about for a few months.

Are some 321's from London Midland still to be divided up amongst c2c (London FS - Grays line), NXEA and FCC, i have heard that a 321 is currently refurbished and running for FCC. I ask because i would love to see some older units back on c2c amongst the sea of identical 357's??

Also does anyone know what is expected to happen with the 3 NXEA class 317 fleets once Electrostars take over the Stansted Line?
 
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MCR247

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Hi all i have just joined and thought id get started with something that i have been trying to find out about for a few months.

Are some 321's from London Midland still to be divided up amongst c2c (London FS - Grays line), NXEA and FCC, i have heard that a 321 is currently refurbished and running for FCC. I ask because i would love to see some older units back on c2c amongst the sea of identical 357's??

Also does anyone know what is expected to happen with the 3 NXEA class 317 fleets once Electrostars take over the Stansted Line?

321s arent going to c2c anymore. most are going to NXEA. The 317s will apparentley be going to strengthen other services....

HTH :)
 

GospelOak117

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ah rite thanks for the info.

so with such an increase in units for National Express does that mean 317/321's will eventually take on some more 315 services, we used to see alot of 317's on the Chingford branch but since the two 315 fleets were unified we get nothing but 315's.
 

delt1c

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ah rite thanks for the info.

so with such an increase in units for National Express does that mean 317/321's will eventually take on some more 315 services, we used to see alot of 317's on the Chingford branch but since the two 315 fleets were unified we get nothing but 315's.

Not quite, morning peaks see quite a few 317's on the Chingford service, also if you look at the stabling point there are are always 317's parkled up.
Hope we dont loose our 317's. They may have came to us 3rd hand but they are excellent units and almost unique.
I remember when the 1st 321's were introduced and they used to have some Bishop Stortford and Cambridge trips, used them a few times but give me a 317/5 any day. solid built and soldier on regardless.
 

O L Leigh

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The Cl317's are going nowhere. There just isn't going to be enough units of other classes coming from elsewhere to see them all off. Once the new StanEx units have entered service the displaced fleet will go onto regular West Anglia services.

There may be some Cl315 diagrams that go to Cl317's as a result of the cascade, but these are most likely to be the handful of peak hour Hertford trips rather than the inner-suburban runs to places like Chingford, Enfield Town and Cheshunt.

O L Leigh
 

ungreat

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i have heard that a 321 is currently refurbished and running for FCC.

Not yet it isnt...I did my training on it two weeks ago...they are due to enter service at the start of the new timetable this month.Only Peterborough drivers are initially going to be trained on them,and they will be used for peak hours services,with an occasional trip to Cambridge as well.

321 404 is the one thats running about in FCC colours,but it will be joined by up to nine more in due course.Its just doing training trips for now.
 

GospelOak117

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all in all an interesting diverse EMU fleet for FCC now then with a class of every 3** family running, everything but Junipers and Desiros(please no lol).
 

MCR247

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all in all an interesting diverse EMU fleet for FCC now then with a class of every 3** family running, everything but Junipers and Desiros(please no lol).

Well they dont have 314s, 315, 320, 322, 323, 325, 332, 333, 375, 390, 373 (eurostar) etc.....
 

westcoaster

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Well they dont have 314s, 315, 320, 322, 323, 325, 332, 333, 375, 390, 373 (eurostar) etc.....

i think he ment groups/family of trains 313+314(peps?) same group, 321+319 same group, 365+325 (networkers)? cant think of the proper name for the groupings/family?
 

A0

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I went into London on Friday using FCC GN - first time in quite a while and was surprised at a few things:

most of the off peak inner suburban services now seem to be 6 car 313s - for a long time these were 3 cars.

the outer suburban stoppers all seemed to be 317/0s, some in 8 cars

the outer suburban fasts seemed to be 365s in 8 car sets

Don't recall seeing any 317/2s - anybody know what these are doing now ?

Also are the 365s off the stoppers now? Used to like getting these from WGC - pity if it's only 317s and 313s now - especially when it's hot - at least the 365s are air cond.

Saw a 321 at Hornsey in FCC colours - first of more to come I guess. Also a 313 in Silverlink colours - would this be routine maintenance or a transfer to FCC?
 

Aictos

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Not yet it isnt...I did my training on it two weeks ago...they are due to enter service at the start of the new timetable this month.Only Peterborough drivers are initially going to be trained on them,and they will be used for peak hours services,with an occasional trip to Cambridge as well.

321 404 is the one thats running about in FCC colours,but it will be joined by up to nine more in due course.Its just doing training trips for now.

That's funny, when I went on my Disruption Management Training, I was told by the management there that we were only getting 5 321s, not 10.

I queried this by asking them if we were getting 5 now and 5 at a later date giving us a total fleet of 10 321s but they were adamant that we were only going to get 5 of the 321s.
 

MCR247

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What good is five, I mean they cant even that 3 8 cars, as wont they be useless as 4 cars to P'boro?
 

jon0844

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The 365s are not air conditioned, unless you're a driver anyway! They still do many semi-fast services, so for me going to Hatfield I think it's either the ones to Cambridge or Peterborough that will be 365s and 317s for the other. There are also some late night services that are now 313s - and not just the usual all station stoppers to WGC that would run from Moorgate until about 10pm. It's good that they're running most 313 services in 6-car formation, as they're pretty busy all the time and splitting/joining them must be pretty wasteful.

I'm not aware of there being any other 317 types in use by FCC, since Wagn would have given them over to One many years ago. They've also been given yet another refresh as the Wagn refresh was very low quality - with regards mainly to the flooring and exterior bodywork. The new ones have new seat covers (not really necessary), better lino (but not ideal, it's splitting in places already), improved toilets and a decent looking livery on the outside.

The 365s also got new carpeting which was done REALLY badly and is bulging all over the place, while windows that either don't open or don't close are still to be looked at (FCC acknowledge the problem regularly on their website forums) and the hopper vents are sometimes working or not; ditto the information screens.

I eagerly await the interior of the 321, but from what I've seen at Hornsey it looks like it's the very old Wagn-like blue seating. Makes me wonder how much of a refresh it will get by the time it is in service in a couple of weeks.
 

O L Leigh

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All the Cl317/2's (or Cl317/6's as they are now classified) went over to WA. Although these units were built new for the GN they no longer work on that side.

O L Leigh
 

Aictos

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The 365s are not air conditioned, unless you're a driver anyway! They still do many semi-fast services, so for me going to Hatfield I think it's either the ones to Cambridge or Peterborough that will be 365s and 317s for the other. There are also some late night services that are now 313s - and not just the usual all station stoppers to WGC that would run from Moorgate until about 10pm. It's good that they're running most 313 services in 6-car formation, as they're pretty busy all the time and splitting/joining them must be pretty wasteful.

I'm not aware of there being any other 317 types in use by FCC, since Wagn would have given them over to One many years ago. They've also been given yet another refresh as the Wagn refresh was very low quality - with regards mainly to the flooring and exterior bodywork. The new ones have new seat covers (not really necessary), better lino (but not ideal, it's splitting in places already), improved toilets and a decent looking livery on the outside.

The 365s also got new carpeting which was done REALLY badly and is bulging all over the place, while windows that either don't open or don't close are still to be looked at (FCC acknowledge the problem regularly on their website forums) and the hopper vents are sometimes working or not; ditto the information screens.

I eagerly await the interior of the 321, but from what I've seen at Hornsey it looks like it's the very old Wagn-like blue seating. Makes me wonder how much of a refresh it will get by the time it is in service in a couple of weeks.

Most 313s also have cab air conditioning as well, if you look towards the front of one, it's the box towards one side of the coupler with a silver front.

As to the interior of the 321s, I've seen the inside of 404 and I'm surprised it's running with the state of the interior!

The 321s from a interior view share the same decor as the 317s with regards to the seating, being 3+2 in standard and 2+2 in first and proper hopper windows with glass not plastic, although they do share the same kind of tables as the 365s have which is that small triangle plastic table which is a big improvement on the 317s.

The toilets are the same as the 317s.

The big difference is the first class as you have the first class at one end immediately behind the driver then you also have another first class section like the 317 one further along in the same coach with the rear of the coach being standard class.

I've been told by a driving manager training a pair of drivers at the time that the interior will not change so for these of you who like first class then the 321s will offer more seating then the 317s and 365s in that aspect.

It still had the old London Midland posters inside a few weeks ago!

All in one, I think users on the GN will be very happy to have the 321s on the route as it means existing 365s running as a 4 car can now run as a 8 car meaning more seats.

I for one cannot wait for the new timetable as we've got the 321s plus extra services on my line, :D
 

ungreat

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The 365s are not air conditioned, unless you're a driver anyway! ...... of the 321, but from what I've seen at Hornsey it looks like it's the very old Wagn-like blue seating. Makes me wonder how much of a refresh it will get by the time it is in service in a couple of weeks.


The 365's arent air conditioned for drivers either....just a rudimentary cab cooling system that usually blows hot air into the cab.

The 321 still has its old BR seating in place at the moment..its off to Wolverton at the end of the training for a deep clean and seat covers..nothing more.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
That's funny, when I went on my Disruption Management Training, I was told by the management there that we were only getting 5 321s, not 10.

I queried this by asking them if we were getting 5 now and 5 at a later date giving us a total fleet of 10 321s but they were adamant that we were only going to get 5 of the 321s.

Note use of UP TO NINE MORE.....5 is the quota at the moment with the option of an extra five which will more than likely be used.
 

jon0844

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The new timetable certainly does seem to be an improvement, not least because the adustments to services needing to go through the two line section around Welwyn North should take off a lot of pressure - and improve reliability no end.

I might just be lucky, but some of the service leaving a little later in peak times are better for my onward bus connection - and gives me a few extra minutes to get to them in the first place. I'm also well chuffed about the new morning service that fills a large gap in service, and (from what I can see) will be a 4 car service without first class! Result; my ideal timed service AND the ability to sit in first class. :)
 

Aictos

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The 365's arent air conditioned for drivers either....just a rudimentary cab cooling system that usually blows hot air into the cab.

The 321 still has its old BR seating in place at the moment..its off to Wolverton at the end of the training for a deep clean and seat covers..nothing more.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Note use of UP TO NINE MORE.....5 is the quota at the moment with the option of an extra five which will more than likely be used.

Don't want to be arguing with you here but they were 100% said only 5 were coming and that's it - no option for a extra 5.

But then again, this is management we're talking about, the same management who were stating the 321s were coming from East Midland Trains! until I quickly corrected them by stating it was instead London Midland.
 

jon0844

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The 365's arent air conditioned for drivers either....just a rudimentary cab cooling system that usually blows hot air into the cab.

Really? I thought they got proper air conditioning systems installed when they got the new front end - and it was only us mere travellers forced to put up with rather hit-and-miss hopper vents.

I'm amazed that even back in the mid 1990s, nobody thought air conditioning was essential. I'm shocked that new London buses don't have air conditioning. Neither overground trains, nor buses, have any problems with aircon as, say, deep level tube trains.

It's uncomfortable for passengers, but surely even worse for a driver that has to sit in a boiling hot cab when taking it out of the depot or a station where it has sat in the heat for some time. Open windows are noisy and hardly do much for the aerodynamics of a train (or bus)! Okay, not much impact - but probably enough to almost counter the increased use of energy needed to cool the air.
 

jopsuk

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All in one, I think users on the GN will be very happy to have the 321s on the route as it means existing 365s running as a 4 car can now run as a 8 car meaning more seats.

Plus the increase to 12 cars for the 7:15 and 7:45 from Cambridge- though I bet there will still be occasions when it runs as a four...
 

GospelOak117

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All the Cl317/2's (or Cl317/6's as they are now classified) went over to WA. Although these units were built new for the GN they no longer work on that side.

O L Leigh

the 317/6 having been used on many West Anglia suburban services as well as their Stansted and Cambridge runs have since refurbishment some 10 years ago become very scruffy. One unit was still wearing that old cream WAGN livery recently and it was very worn down due to constant graffiti removal etc, the interiors are a state too. Gotta love these noisy old beasts though
 

ungreat

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Don't want to be arguing with you here but they were 100% said only 5 were coming and that's it - no option for a extra 5.

But then again, this is management we're talking about, the same management who were stating the 321s were coming from East Midland Trains! until I quickly corrected them by stating it was instead London Midland.


Exactly!

Our instructor said there was provision for up to 10 of them,even had the numbers of them,but yes,you are correct that five is the amount they are having right now.

There are also two twelve car 365 sets running from Peterborough in the new timetable.
 

Aictos

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Exactly!

Our instructor said there was provision for up to 10 of them,even had the numbers of them,but yes,you are correct that five is the amount they are having right now.

There are also two twelve car 365 sets running from Peterborough in the new timetable.

It's funny that only the 12 car Peterborough's are stopping at Stevenage and the 12 car Cambridge's are not!

Would be nice to have all 12 cars stopping at Stevenage then St Neots/Royston, Huntingdon and finally Peterborough/Cambridge.

Talking of Cambridge, how much of the though platform will the 12 car take up seeing it's split into 2.

Still I wonder how long it will be until the 12 cars have to be diverted down my line due to some disruption on the mainline, non stopping of course.
 

westcoaster

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The 365's arent air conditioned for drivers either....just a rudimentary cab cooling system that usually blows hot air into the cab.

its the same as the fcc 313's+319's its just cab cooling, which is not what it does and only work when the master key is on, it pumps out some horrible rubber smell,and warn air thats it. I know very few drivers that use it for these reasons. 321's on the other hand do have excellent air conditionong units, and is like sitting in a freezer and they run all the time.
 

jopsuk

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Talking of Cambridge, how much of the though platform will the 12 car take up seeing it's split into 2.

Not sure about platform 4 (the north end), but platform 1 (the south end) has recently had a short extension added that has a "12 car stop" sign on the end.

I'm going to place bets that on leaving Cambridge the front unit will be by far the quietest- I reckon most of those arriving early for the train will get in the middle section (current front), obviously the Kings Lynn commuters will still be in the rear unit, along with anyone cutting it fine (doubt dispatchers are going to be impressed by anyone attempting to sprint 190 metres past them just to get in the front unit)

With regards the 317s (as a West Anglia commuter), when the new Stansted Express trains come I guess there will be less 4 car trains? Will the few trains that run north of Cambridge be able to run as 8 cars- can they split/join anywhere near as quick as the 365s do? I'd guess it's a little more involved what with the corridor connection?
 
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