GWR Class 800

[Charlie M.]

I too have had a first ride on a class 800. In fact two rides, today. Now I had really high hopes as I so want this train to live up to the standards of a HST and was anticipating that they would have ultra similar interiors.

From the outside the train is spot on imo. I like the exterior doors ,even though they're sliding, I like the step, and I like the bleep bleep bleep bleep when the doors open. They look very solid and stylish.

They sound great from the platform when they move off. Especially in electric mode. There is a real impression of electric power and smoothness given by the sound. I was impressed. Sounds better than a Pendolino when moving off I think.

As for the interior. Yes the colour of the seats is a little dull. But it's not bad by any means and if I wasnt comparing it to a HST I'd say it lived up to Chiltern Mainline standards. The vestible areas look solid and heavy duty. The coach interiors look neutral and I think it was wise choosing grey over white (or off white or cream) for a lot of the plastics. Grey should stand the test of time better. They seem to have gone for a neutral white for the lighting, which I think works well. I would even say it makes the coaches feel even lighter than they probably already would if they had warm white lighting like the Pendolinos have .It's more like airline lighting and I think it works.

Now the seat comfort. And I had heard several stories from friends about how hard they supposedly were. Well after trying today, they are hard, there's no doubt about it or getting around it, they're hard. But having had a good look at the seat they're pretty thick with a lot of foam or cushioning or whatever inside. So it makes me wonder whether they've chosen a really really firm type of foam with no springs rather than its the base of the seat that can be felt. I think it's an ultra firm foam. I did wonder whether this is to future proof the seats meaning they last longer as all the weight and people's bounce will make them less firm over time so they will perhaps last longer? Possibly, could this be the case?

The other thing that struck me regards the seats is that the seat covers are a sort of cloth. They're not velour as is the case on very nearly all train seats (historically anyway). They are a sort of car seat style cloth. Again I'm not sure why this is? Maybe they think they will wear better? Or maybe it's been proven car seat type fabrics last longer? In my opinion the fabric doesn't look or feel as comfortable on the seat as velour. They do seem to have started to wear pretty quickly. Several of the seats I looked at had dark visible stains on, probably coffee. Like if you spilled coffee on a car seat. And I can't help but think velour covers like on FGW HSTs wouldn't show marks like this in the way a carpet wouldn't. Whether this cloth material absorbs less dust, could be, as I'd imagine if you patted the seat there'd probsbly be less dust as the fabric looks to be more dense and less breathable. Hope that makes sense. I can't help but wonder why Hitachi didn't just use the same seat they have on class 395 javelins? They are velour and not particularly hard.

The other thing I don't really get is why the trim above the windows (where the reservations are) is sort of neon London Midland/Central Trains Green? GWR Brand is dark green and this just doesn't match. Bit tacky imo but it's only nitpicking really. Also neither set I went on had working reservation screen but one set did have reservation cards? Don't know why this was?

Looking along the coach from one end to another the shape looks very similar to that of a MK4 to the naked eye. The dimensions and windows look similar which I like.

All in all I loved travelling on this train for the first time and I was still excited pleased and impressed. It's a smooth ride and I didn't feel when it went from Diesel to Electric mode. Diesel mode felt very smooth, much smoother than any other DMU I can recall and yes we appeared to have an engine under our coach both times.

I tried to pick out when the pantograph was lowered (raised coming back) but I couldn't .And we didn't stop at Didcot.

I share similar opinions about the train.

The paint on the 9cars and the 802s really give it a nice touch and makes it look well made. It feels clean and the train it’s self is made with good features.

This train will be around for about what.. 20 30 years? And people will not want whatever takes over to take over, like the HST.

The HST is by far a lovely train. It was modified well and did the job, even 40 years later. But new trains are essential now for more reasons than “they are getting old” and I’m sure in the next 10 years, this train will not look the same inside.

 

[jimm]

I too have had a first ride on a class 800. In fact two rides, today. Now I had really high hopes as I so want this train to live up to the standards of a HST and was anticipating that they would have ultra similar interiors.

From the outside the train is spot on imo. I like the exterior doors ,even though they're sliding, I like the step, and I like the bleep bleep bleep bleep when the doors open. They look very solid and stylish.

They sound great from the platform when they move off. Especially in electric mode. There is a real impression of electric power and smoothness given by the sound. I was impressed. Sounds better than a Pendolino when moving off I think.

As for the interior. Yes the colour of the seats is a little dull. But it's not bad by any means and if I wasnt comparing it to a HST I'd say it lived up to Chiltern Mainline standards. The vestible areas look solid and heavy duty. The coach interiors look neutral and I think it was wise choosing grey over white (or off white or cream) for a lot of the plastics. Grey should stand the test of time better. They seem to have gone for a neutral white for the lighting, which I think works well. I would even say it makes the coaches feel even lighter than they probably already would if they had warm white lighting like the Pendolinos have .It's more like airline lighting and I think it works.

Now the seat comfort. And I had heard several stories from friends about how hard they supposedly were. Well after trying today, they are hard, there's no doubt about it or getting around it, they're hard. But having had a good look at the seat they're pretty thick with a lot of foam or cushioning or whatever inside. So it makes me wonder whether they've chosen a really really firm type of foam with no springs rather than its the base of the seat that can be felt. I think it's an ultra firm foam. I did wonder whether this is to future proof the seats meaning they last longer as all the weight and people's bounce will make them less firm over time so they will perhaps last longer? Possibly, could this be the case?

The other thing that struck me regards the seats is that the seat covers are a sort of cloth. They're not velour as is the case on very nearly all train seats (historically anyway). They are a sort of car seat style cloth. Again I'm not sure why this is? Maybe they think they will wear better? Or maybe it's been proven car seat type fabrics last longer? In my opinion the fabric doesn't look or feel as comfortable on the seat as velour. They do seem to have started to wear pretty quickly. Several of the seats I looked at had dark visible stains on, probably coffee. Like if you spilled coffee on a car seat. And I can't help but think velour covers like on FGW HSTs wouldn't show marks like this in the way a carpet wouldn't. Whether this cloth material absorbs less dust, could be, as I'd imagine if you patted the seat there'd probsbly be less dust as the fabric looks to be more dense and less breathable. Hope that makes sense. I can't help but wonder why Hitachi didn't just use the same seat they have on class 395 javelins? They are velour and not particularly hard.

The other thing I don't really get is why the trim above the windows (where the reservations are) is sort of neon London Midland/Central Trains Green? GWR Brand is dark green and this just doesn't match. Bit tacky imo but it's only nitpicking really. Also neither set I went on had working reservation screen but one set did have reservation cards? Don't know why this was?

Looking along the coach from one end to another the shape looks very similar to that of a MK4 to the naked eye. The dimensions and windows look similar which I like.

All in all I loved travelling on this train for the first time and I was still excited pleased and impressed. It's a smooth ride and I didn't feel when it went from Diesel to Electric mode. Diesel mode felt very smooth, much smoother than any other DMU I can recall and yes we appeared to have an engine under our coach both times.

I tried to pick out when the pantograph was lowered (raised coming back) but I couldn't .And we didn't stop at Didcot.

There has been discussion of the issues with the digital reservation system back up the thread, so you can find some explanation of the issues if you track back.

Re the green strip where the reservation displays are located.

Something close to the shade of green used for this strip is part of the colour palette currently used by GWR - on both menu bar buttons on its website and printed publicity material, such as timetables, where it is used to highlight Saturday services, trains that only run on certain days of the week and for the blobs at the top of the columns that indicate named services.

And in the largely neutral interiors, the green strip does get people's attention, which is presumably the intention so they spot the seat reservation information - assuming Hitachi can make it work reliably. When it does work, it is clear and easy to understand.

 

[coppercapped]

I'm inclined to agree on this point. I find it particularly noticeable at high speed with a lot if “jiggling”, rumble, and sudden realignments. Feels much less “flowing” than an HST. Since this could of course all be in my imagination … I wonder if anybody has used a nice accelerometer / data logger to compare the ride of an 800 with that of an HST over the same piece of track at (as far as possible) the same speed … it would be very interesting to know the results, if so! Likewise the noise levels (in the middle of a coach, say).

I've noticed this as well.

Most of my journeys have been between Reading and London with a few between Reading and Didcot. There certainly does seem to be more high frequency 'jiggle' than is noticeable with a Mk 3 with equivalent mileage. In addition I have noticed some crashes and bangs from the bogies when going over switch and crossing work - over the same places a Mk 3 makes no fuss at all.

Last week I returned from London late in the evening on a Class 165, running on the Mains to the Kennet Bridge crossings just before Reading. Admittedly it only reaches 90mph but the ride was smoother and less 'nervous' that the IET at 125mph on the way to London a few hours earlier. As far as the passenger is concerned the ride should be just as smooth regardless of the speed.

I would have thought - and expected - that a train being built now with all the expertise accumulated over the 48 years since the BT10 bogie for the Mk 3 coach was designed would ride more smoothly and be quieter than a train built in the mid-1970s. When even a suburban multiple unit using bogies based on those originally trialled under the two coach PEP prototype unit in 1971 (BP8, which evolved to the BT/BP13 design used under the Class 313 units of 1976 - subsequently called the Series 3) rides better than the top-of-the-range express train, then something is seriously wrong with the engineering management of the railways.

As it stands the ride quality of the IET/Class 80X/whatever is unacceptable for the year 2018. It should be a lot better.

 

[pt_mad]

There has been discussion of the issues with the digital reservation system back up the thread, so you can find some explanation of the issues if you track back.

Re the green strip where the reservation displays are located.

Something close to the shade of green used for this strip is part of the colour palette currently used by GWR - on both menu bar buttons on its website and printed publicity material, such as timetables, where it is used to highlight Saturday services, trains that only run on certain days of the week and for the blobs at the top of the columns that indicate named services.

And in the largely neutral interiors, the green strip does get people's attention, which is presumably the intention so they spot the seat reservation information - assuming Hitachi can make it work reliably. When it does work, it is clear and easy to understand.

I meant to add, re the green strip above the windows where the reservations are, the handles on the edges of the aisle seats are also coloured in this neon green. Perhaphs for health and safety so they are easily visible and don't get knocked by elbows? But the handles appear to be rather low for standing and walking along? They're not on the top corners of the seats like on a GWR HST and most other trains. The're lower down, even though the seats aren't particularly that high? Anyone know why this is?

Re the comments above I feel if comparing the 800 to the 395 Javlin the 800 feels smoother to me, even in diesel mode. There's less noise, again in both electric (and diesel mode on the 800) imo. Could be down to the sheer power contained in the motors in the 395 thats its noisier but I feel the ride is better in the 800.

To me it does feel smooth. Ok it may not be the glide along of a mk3 coach, but they are literally being pushed and pulled. Its a pretty good ride and I hardly noticed we'd reached the 125 as it felt quite natural. Riding on a Pendolino there's all sorts of clunks and rattles and sudden lefts and rights and you can feel when you pass over points quite drastically at times. Its far superior a ride to a Pendolino to me but that's just my opinion others will disagree.


Another thought that's occurred to me since is that perhaps we should compare them to a class 180 Adelante instead. Wind back to late 2002 and I remember thinking these were the new thing for the Paddington to Bristol route. They seemed to be the main stock travelling between Reading and Swindon and to me they were new, clean, trendy ish, modern compared to what we had before, wide, very light and as smooth as you'd hope for a DMU. The HSTs back then were still with their BR interiors. Some were quite grubby and they felt very old fashioned, so I personally thought the 180 interior was the bees knees back then, only for a year or so granted.
Now compared to that, the 800 really is a cut above. By a country mile. Its more modern, more stylish, sophisticated and yet subdued and doesn't shout about it. We're comparing the new stock to the refurbished Mk3 interiors from the FGW era and the mallard style refurbs on the ECML Mk3s. The successes there are mainly due to the choices of seats and the use of wood effect vinyls over paneling etc which makes it feel more natural and less space age.
Most of the success there though is due to the great choice of seat imo (on the FGW/ECML Mk3 sets).

 

[James James]

As it stands the ride quality of the IET/Class 80X/whatever is unacceptable for the year 2018. It should be a lot better.

How does UK track quality compare to Japanese track quality? Perhaps design expectations didn't match what the trains encounter in real life?

 

[43096]

The other thing that struck me regards the seats is that the seat covers are a sort of cloth. They're not velour as is the case on very nearly all train seats (historically anyway). They are a sort of car seat style cloth. Again I'm not sure why this is? Maybe they think they will wear better? Or maybe it's been proven car seat type fabrics last longer? In my opinion the fabric doesn't look or feel as comfortable on the seat as velour. They do seem to have started to wear pretty quickly. Several of the seats I looked at had dark visible stains on, probably coffee. Like if you spilled coffee on a car seat. And I can't help but think velour covers like on FGW HSTs wouldn't show marks like this in the way a carpet wouldn't. Whether this cloth material absorbs less dust, could be, as I'd imagine if you patted the seat there'd probsbly be less dust as the fabric looks to be more dense and less breathable. Hope that makes sense. I can't help but wonder why Hitachi didn't just use the same seat they have on class 395 javelins? They are velour and not particularly hard.

The velour type coverings are technically known as moquette, as opposed to the flat cloth type. Moquette is much harder wearing than flat cloth.

 

[ATW158Xpress]

Saw 800 304 at Severn Tunnel Jn and ran as 3L94 from Stoke Gilford to Hereford ECS to form 1816 to London Paddington.

 

[Dren Ahmeti]

I tried to pick out when the pantograph was lowered (raised coming back) but I couldn't .And we didn't stop at Didcot.

Some drivers will drop the pan at Cholsey rather than at Moreton Cutting, especially if Oxford-bound, due to the busy nature of Didcot Parkway and the associated signalling, especially if diverging northwards towards Oxford on the avoiding lines!
It also gives time for the diesel to kick in properly.

 

[samuelmorris]

I meant to add, re the green strip above the windows where the reservations are, the handles on the edges of the aisle seats are also coloured in this neon green. Perhaphs for health and safety so they are easily visible and don't get knocked by elbows? But the handles appear to be rather low for standing and walking along? They're not on the top corners of the seats like on a GWR HST and most other trains. The're lower down, even though the seats aren't particularly that high? Anyone know why this is?

Re the comments above I feel if comparing the 800 to the 395 Javlin the 800 feels smoother to me, even in diesel mode. There's less noise, again in both electric (and diesel mode on the 800) imo. Could be down to the sheer power contained in the motors in the 395 thats its noisier but I feel the ride is better in the 800.

To me it does feel smooth. Ok it may not be the glide along of a mk3 coach, but they are literally being pushed and pulled. Its a pretty good ride and I hardly noticed we'd reached the 125 as it felt quite natural. Riding on a Pendolino there's all sorts of clunks and rattles and sudden lefts and rights and you can feel when you pass over points quite drastically at times. Its far superior a ride to a Pendolino to me but that's just my opinion others will disagree.


Another thought that's occurred to me since is that perhaps we should compare them to a class 180 Adelante instead. Wind back to late 2002 and I remember thinking these were the new thing for the Paddington to Bristol route. They seemed to be the main stock travelling between Reading and Swindon and to me they were new, clean, trendy ish, modern compared to what we had before, wide, very light and as smooth as you'd hope for a DMU. The HSTs back then were still with their BR interiors. Some were quite grubby and they felt very old fashioned, so I personally thought the 180 interior was the bees knees back then, only for a year or so granted.
Now compared to that, the 800 really is a cut above. By a country mile. Its more modern, more stylish, sophisticated and yet subdued and doesn't shout about it. We're comparing the new stock to the refurbished Mk3 interiors from the FGW era and the mallard style refurbs on the ECML Mk3s. The successes there are mainly due to the choices of seats and the use of wood effect vinyls over paneling etc which makes it feel more natural and less space age.
Most of the success there though is due to the great choice of seat imo (on the FGW/ECML Mk3 sets).

Agreed that 800s are considerably better than 180s, far quieter though admittedly less comfortable seats. Not sure if I saw vestibule tip-up seats in the 800 like the 180s have, I can't remember. There are a lot less rattles on an 800 than a 180 which at high speed can sound like it's about to fall apart. That being said, I don't think 180s have the wheel imbalance that I noticed on the 800, which arguably means they may provide a smoother ride in practice. It's a shame as the suspension seems to absorb the rougher patches of track quite well, but the continuous juddering in time with each rotation of the wheel, particularly noticeable on curves, was rather unpleasant at times.

 

[coppercapped]

I meant to add, re the green strip above the windows where the reservations are, the handles on the edges of the aisle seats are also coloured in this neon green. Perhaphs for health and safety so they are easily visible and don't get knocked by elbows? But the handles appear to be rather low for standing and walking along? They're not on the top corners of the seats like on a GWR HST and most other trains. The're lower down, even though the seats aren't particularly that high? Anyone know why this is?

Re the comments above I feel if comparing the 800 to the 395 Javlin the 800 feels smoother to me, even in diesel mode. There's less noise, again in both electric (and diesel mode on the 800) imo. Could be down to the sheer power contained in the motors in the 395 thats its noisier but I feel the ride is better in the 800.

To me it does feel smooth. Ok it may not be the glide along of a mk3 coach, but they are literally being pushed and pulled. Its a pretty good ride and I hardly noticed we'd reached the 125 as it felt quite natural. Riding on a Pendolino there's all sorts of clunks and rattles and sudden lefts and rights and you can feel when you pass over points quite drastically at times. Its far superior a ride to a Pendolino to me but that's just my opinion others will disagree.


Another thought that's occurred to me since is that perhaps we should compare them to a class 180 Adelante instead. Wind back to late 2002 and I remember thinking these were the new thing for the Paddington to Bristol route. They seemed to be the main stock travelling between Reading and Swindon and to me they were new, clean, trendy ish, modern compared to what we had before, wide, very light and as smooth as you'd hope for a DMU. The HSTs back then were still with their BR interiors. Some were quite grubby and they felt very old fashioned, so I personally thought the 180 interior was the bees knees back then, only for a year or so granted.
Now compared to that, the 800 really is a cut above. By a country mile. Its more modern, more stylish, sophisticated and yet subdued and doesn't shout about it. We're comparing the new stock to the refurbished Mk3 interiors from the FGW era and the mallard style refurbs on the ECML Mk3s. The successes there are mainly due to the choices of seats and the use of wood effect vinyls over paneling etc which makes it feel more natural and less space age.
Most of the success there though is due to the great choice of seat imo (on the FGW/ECML Mk3 sets).

The interior fittings and fixtures are transient - they can be changed comparatively easily. The mechanical parts of the train are essential fixed for life - unless some serious re-engineering is done along the way.

My point is that the ride and general noise level from the suspension is worse - or at least no better - than that achieved by a 48 year old design. And I would point out that a Mark 3 coach in an HST is also being pushed and pulled, so that's no excuse either.

As many of the Western's passengers can't compare the train with a Pendolino but only with an HST this comparison is also not really helpful, except to show that perhaps Alstom's design is also deficient is some areas.

How does UK track quality compare to Japanese track quality? Perhaps design expectations didn't match what the trains encounter in real life?

It matters not one iota whether or not Japanese track quality is better or worse than that found on the Western. Hitachi knew - or should have known - the values of the UK's track characteristics when they were designing the suspension. If they did know and couldn't do any better then they were incompetent or if they didn't know they were ignorant.

But the point remains - there is little or no improvement in the ride quality of a train now being built to that achieved nearly 50 years ago.

That is disgraceful.

 

[corsaVXR]

It matters not one iota whether or not Japanese track quality is better or worse than that found on the Western. Hitachi knew - or should have known - the values of the UK's track characteristics when they were designing the suspension. If they did know and couldn't do any better then they were incompetent or if they didn't know they were ignorant.

But the point remains - there is little or no improvement in the ride quality of a train now being built to that achieved nearly 50 years ago.

That is disgraceful.

Mk4 coaches had complaints early in life about ride quality. They're pretty decent now.

Also, it depends a hell of a lot where you're judging from - over the bogie will contain a lot more vertical movement, whereas in the centre, you'll lose the vertical movement component, and have more of a pitching movement. Roll will be less noticeable in the centre also, assuming asymmetric displacement on the bogies.

However, there's one big thing that comes into play - mass of the coaches. MK3 design is a steel bodyshell. Class 800 is designed to be lighter and is an aluminium construction. The lower mass will affect the ride quality - It's not without reason that Rolls Royces are the same weight as cargo barges.

 

[Noddy]

The interior fittings and fixtures are transient - they can be changed comparatively easily. The mechanical parts of the train are essential fixed for life - unless some serious re-engineering is done along the way.

My point is that the ride and general noise level from the suspension is worse - or at least no better - than that achieved by a 48 year old design. And I would point out that a Mark 3 coach in an HST is also being pushed and pulled, so that's no excuse either.

As many of the Western's passengers can't compare the train with a Pendolino but only with an HST this comparison is also not really helpful, except to show that perhaps Alstom's design is also deficient is some areas.

It matters not one iota whether or not Japanese track quality is better or worse than that found on the Western. Hitachi knew - or should have known - the values of the UK's track characteristics when they were designing the suspension. If they did know and couldn't do any better then they were incompetent or if they didn't know they were ignorant.

But the point remains - there is little or no improvement in the ride quality of a train now being built to that achieved nearly 50 years ago.

That is disgraceful.

Except the engineers have had 40 years to tweak the suspension of the MK3. The IET has only been around for a year or two.

 

[The_Engineer]

Mk4 coaches had complaints early in life about ride quality. They're pretty decent now.

Mk.IV, being deigned for 140 mph top speed, rode well at that speed but were initially not very good in the 110 - 130 mph range. It took a lot of retuning, additional dampers, etc., to get them to ride better at the lower cruising speed.

 

[pt_mad]

The interior fittings and fixtures are transient - they can be changed comparatively easily. The mechanical parts of the train are essential fixed for life - unless some serious re-engineering is done along the way.

My point is that the ride and general noise level from the suspension is worse - or at least no better - than that achieved by a 48 year old design. And I would point out that a Mark 3 coach in an HST is also being pushed and pulled, so that's no excuse either.

As many of the Western's passengers can't compare the train with a Pendolino but only with an HST this comparison is also not really helpful, except to show that perhaps Alstom's design is also deficient is some areas.

It matters not one iota whether or not Japanese track quality is better or worse than that found on the Western. Hitachi knew - or should have known - the values of the UK's track characteristics when they were designing the suspension. If they did know and couldn't do any better then they were incompetent or if they didn't know they were ignorant.

But the point remains - there is little or no improvement in the ride quality of a train now being built to that achieved nearly 50 years ago.

That is disgraceful.

Sorry when I was referring to being pushed and pulled I was only talking about the MK3s. I meant they're being hailed whereas the 800 is basically a unit with traction workings underneath. So it's probably not likely be as smooth as just wheels frames and springs.

Imo the 800 does ride better than a Pendolino. Just making the comparison that it's a pretty good unit really compared to other similar 125mph units that are around. Clearly it's better than Vouagers, 222s and 180s. So it's better than practically every other 125mph unit that's around in this country.

HSTs are such a high benchmark and just because they are old doesn't mean we can expect double the ride quality as they practically set every benchmark anyway. It's not gonna get much better than a MK3 because there was that much room for improvement left. Bit theu they are just coaches. Loco hauled coaches. They're not units or bide mode self contained trains.

 

[James James]

It matters not one iota whether or not Japanese track quality is better or worse than that found on the Western. Hitachi knew - or should have known - the values of the UK's track characteristics when they were designing the suspension. If they did know and couldn't do any better then they were incompetent or if they didn't know they were ignorant.

But the point remains - there is little or no improvement in the ride quality of a train now being built to that achieved nearly 50 years ago.

That is disgraceful.

Or perhaps whoever ordered the train should have made the right specifications (which would affect cost)? Can't build what the customer didn't order.

 

[jj1314]

...

My point is that the ride and general noise level from the suspension is worse - or at least no better - than that achieved by a 48 year old design. And I would point out that a Mark 3 coach in an HST is also being pushed and pulled, so that's no excuse either.

...

I'd love to try an 800 between Leicester and London. The Mark 3s on the MML offer the worst ride I've encountered on UK rail. It's a proper 'first world problem' trying to drink a cup of first class coffee, and having to consciously 'dampen' the constant 360-degree movement instead of one's lap!

I will concede that the 800s do offer a bit of a rocky ride themselves, though.

 

[ainsworth74]

Perhaps I've been singularly unlucky my entire life but I can't say that I've ever considered Mk3s to give some sort of superlative ride quality compared to other hauled stock or units. Indeed some of the worst experiences for poor ride quality I can recall have been on Mk3s!

 

[coppercapped]

Or perhaps whoever ordered the train should have made the right specifications (which would affect cost)? Can't build what the customer didn't order.

Is the right answer!

Mk4 coaches had complaints early in life about ride quality. They're pretty decent now.

Also, it depends a hell of a lot where you're judging from - over the bogie will contain a lot more vertical movement, whereas in the centre, you'll lose the vertical movement component, and have more of a pitching movement. Roll will be less noticeable in the centre also, assuming asymmetric displacement on the bogies.

However, there's one big thing that comes into play - mass of the coaches. MK3 design is a steel bodyshell. Class 800 is designed to be lighter and is an aluminium construction. The lower mass will affect the ride quality - It's not without reason that Rolls Royces are the same weight as cargo barges.

I am well aware that the perception of ride quality depends where one is seated. The effects I am writing about are position independent - the occasional underfloor crashes and bangs can be heard everywhere and the higher frequency 'fidgeting' gives the impression that there is a vibration path which by-passes some springs.
You are correct in that the mass of a coach does have an effect - but in fact it is not due to the mass per se but to the various inertias: polar moment of inertia through the vertical axis at the centre of the coach; the 'rolling' moment of inertia along the longitudinal centre-line and the 'pitching' effect through the axis at the centre of the coach at right angles to its length. These moments depend on how the mass is distributed along and across the body.

The body shell of the Mark 3 coach is very light - it's only about 7 or 8 tons, the Mark 4 coach is slightly heavier as the tapered body shape affected the stiffness. I have not yet seen any figures for the mass of the bare shell of the Hitachi trains, but in view of its increased length and the necessity of meeting todays collision requirements (EN 15227 for collision safety and the UK's GM/RT2100 railway standard for strength) I very much doubt it is any lighter than a Mark 3 coach.

A very important point that you missed is the effects of the natural frequencies of the bodies (in torsion, bending and so on) and the way they interact with the natural suspension frequencies. In the Mark 3 coach the natural bending frequency of the body was around 10Hz (I am writing from memory so the
numbers might be slightly out but the principle is correct) and that of the bogie secondary suspension around 7.5Hz. Adding internal furnishings, people and luggage will reduce the bending frequency but it still remained above that of the bogies so there was no significant interaction. The initial problems with the Mark 4 coach was that the natural bending frequency of the body was only just above that of the bogies and with furnishings, fittings and people the two vibrations interacted.

Sorry when I was referring to being pushed and pulled I was only talking about the MK3s. I meant they're being hailed whereas the 800 is basically a unit with traction workings underneath. So it's probably not likely be as smooth as just wheels frames and springs.

Imo the 800 does ride better than a Pendolino. Just making the comparison that it's a pretty good unit really compared to other similar 125mph units that are around. Clearly it's better than Vouagers, 222s and 180s. So it's better than practically every other 125mph unit that's around in this country.

HSTs are such a high benchmark and just because they are old doesn't mean we can expect double the ride quality as they practically set every benchmark anyway. It's not gonna get much better than a MK3 because there was that much room for improvement left. Bit theu they are just coaches. Loco hauled coaches. They're not units or bide mode self contained trains.

The point remains - I don't give a damn whether the train is 'self-powered' or hauled or how it compares with all these other trains. We, the passengers, will be paying £4.5 billion to Agility Trains/Hitachi over the next 27 years to be able to ride in these trains - so 75 years after the first Mark 3 coach took the rails the ride offered to the paying customer will be no better than that which their grandparents enjoyed.

 

[pt_mad]

Maybe so but most information seems to show what most passengers want most of all is a fairly priced ticket, a seat, and for the train to run on time, and obviously to be safe. Everything else comes secondary to most passengers and commuters. These will do the job well and I think they will likely meet (and exceed - they're new) the average expectations of most. I'd imagine a heck of a lot of passengers, especially leisure travelers, will just be impressed that they have a new train rather then these 'old trains' as many occasional travelers know the HSTs. I've heard many a passenger at a station who's not been on a train for a few years standing there as a HST rolls in and commenting that 'these trains are a bit old aint they, they still got old fashioned doors' They expect something 21st century now, and this will meet the need I feel. And they could end up the most reliable units ever in service. We won't know for a few years. They would deserve total credit if they were.

I know you said other units are not relevant, but they are all we have to compare to. Exactly the same happened on the WCML, the busiest line. They went from a full rake of Mk3s to a fleet of EMUs and DMUs. The Pendolinos got stick for having plastic panels instead of windows, less leg room, less tables, darker inside, smaller windows. However they have revolutionised the West Coast in terms of the timetable that can be in place by using them. They are ultra reliable and they are now pretty respected because of all this. And they were new and so were like the new aircraft of the railways at the time. Spotters weren't much for them, but commuters and business travelers absolutely loved the new journey times and very high frequency timetable that they could offer. And they were (are) very clean.

Its all a matter of relative opinion anyway. The voyagers tried to solve the need on the XC routes and they didn't really live up to the mark. But these by far exceed voyagers, and sprinters really. We, as people with an interest in trains have higher standards than someone simply wanting to travel from a to b as quickly as possible with a clean train and a seat. They had a budget and they're not going to perform miracles as far as new stock is concerned.

 

[47802]

Is the right answer!

I am well aware that the perception of ride quality depends where one is seated. The effects I am writing about are position independent - the occasional underfloor crashes and bangs can be heard everywhere and the higher frequency 'fidgeting' gives the impression that there is a vibration path which by-passes some springs.
You are correct in that the mass of a coach does have an effect - but in fact it is not due to the mass per se but to the various inertias: polar moment of inertia through the vertical axis at the centre of the coach; the 'rolling' moment of inertia along the longitudinal centre-line and the 'pitching' effect through the axis at the centre of the coach at right angles to its length. These moments depend on how the mass is distributed along and across the body.

The body shell of the Mark 3 coach is very light - it's only about 7 or 8 tons, the Mark 4 coach is slightly heavier as the tapered body shape affected the stiffness. I have not yet seen any figures for the mass of the bare shell of the Hitachi trains, but in view of its increased length and the necessity of meeting todays collision requirements (EN 15227 for collision safety and the UK's GM/RT2100 railway standard for strength) I very much doubt it is any lighter than a Mark 3 coach.

A very important point that you missed is the effects of the natural frequencies of the bodies (in torsion, bending and so on) and the way they interact with the natural suspension frequencies. In the Mark 3 coach the natural bending frequency of the body was around 10Hz (I am writing from memory so the
numbers might be slightly out but the principle is correct) and that of the bogie secondary suspension around 7.5Hz. Adding internal furnishings, people and luggage will reduce the bending frequency but it still remained above that of the bogies so there was no significant interaction. The initial problems with the Mark 4 coach was that the natural bending frequency of the body was only just above that of the bogies and with furnishings, fittings and people the two vibrations interacted.

The point remains - I don't give a damn whether the train is 'self-powered' or hauled or how it compares with all these other trains. We, the passengers, will be paying £4.5 billion to Agility Trains/Hitachi over the next 27 years to be able to ride in these trains - so 75 years after the first Mark 3 coach took the rails the ride offered to the paying customer will be no better than that which their grandparents enjoyed.

So what? If the ride is reasonable and it does its job, it doesn't really matter if its better or worse than a HST, in a few years time most punters wont remember what the ride was like on HST's on GWML and EC express services, A MK4 is in many respects inferior to a MK3 but it doesn't stop people travelling, a 390 is awful train in many respects compared to the MK2/Mk3 stock that was replaced but it doesn't stop people travelling, a 158 is in many respects inferior to the many Loco Hauled trains that they replaced but it doesn't stop people travelling.

 

[Phil G]

Noticed that the reservation system is now working on the last few 800s I've been on. Unfortunately the coloured lights are no help to me being red / green colour blind! Thankfully they also have the text!

 

[Pete_uk]

Does anyone know which 9 carriage unit worked 1G11 paddington to Cheltenham on the 18th and the 21st of June and what it's operating history is?

 

[The Ham]

We, the passengers, will be paying £4.5 billion to Agility Trains/Hitachi over the next 27 years to be able to ride in these trains - so 75 years after the first Mark 3 coach took the rails the ride offered to the paying customer will be no better than that which their grandparents enjoyed.

That may well be the case, however that could well be sure to the fact that there's little or no scope for improvement.

There will always be things that are so good that there's no noticeable improvement on them for a long time. In fact there's probably things now of lower quality than they were 30 years ago, because they are things that people care little about.

That said, it could well be that the 80x's are being delivered with a default setting, which in time will change to give a better ride. However for now, given the other problems, this is some way down the to do list.

 

[trebor79]

I thought the ride was quite smooth when I rode on one. However, there was a lot of banging and crashing coming from the bogies at certain points, which naturally caused jolts.
One particular bang was mildly alarming, felt as though something had hit the limit of it's travel and for a moment I did wonder if something was wrong.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The point remains - I don't give a damn whether the train is 'self-powered' or hauled or how it compares with all these other trains. We, the passengers, will be paying £4.5 billion to Agility Trains/Hitachi over the next 27 years to be able to ride in these trains - so 75 years after the first Mark 3 coach took the rails the ride offered to the paying customer will be no better than that which their grandparents enjoyed.

A key part of the DfT train spec for the IEP related to weight, because of NR concerns over track wear, and great efforts were made to keep weight down.
It's very likely compromises in suspension were necessary to achieve that.
That's after a generation of too-heavy EMUs, and a bi-mode design does no favours on train weight, nor all the on-board features that Mk3s never had.
Maybe the inside frame bogies play a part, or the 26m design compared to the Mk3's 23m.
It's quite possible that Hitachi won the contract on their low-weight design.
When you seek to blame the manufacturer you should also think about the design criteria the DfT required to be met.
The DfT got what it asked for.

 

[Domh245]

Maybe the inside frame bogies play a part, or the 26m design compared to the Mk3's 23m.

Doubt it will be the inside frame bogies, there are only 2 coaches in a 9 coach train that have them, and none in a 5 car train, and seeing as the 9 coach train's have only just entered service I doubt that many of those reporting a poor ride will have been on an inside-framed-bogied coach.

Also, on the subject of track quality, I'm fairly sure that there was a point in the TTS about the track characteristics but I may be imagining it

 

[ac6000cw]

so 75 years after the first Mark 3 coach took the rails the ride offered to the paying customer will be no better than that which their grandparents enjoyed.

As long as the ride quality is adequate for the purpose, why does that matter?

Engineering design is all about getting the best compromises between the myriad (usually conflicting) design constraints imposed on the product. If the designers of the Mk3 coach had had the same design constraints as the Hitachi engineers it might well have ridden differently - we will never know. Also occasionally (as I know after nearly 40 years spent designing electronics) occasionally the 'stars align' and you finish up with a product that is better than you expected, but that doesn't normally happen - most product designs are 'good enough' but no more than that, cost and time pressures being a big factor (you can't spend forever tweaking and modifying something - it has to get 'out the door').

 

[Bikeman78]

Bad day today; apparently only 23 sets available for 32 diagrams I've seen plenty of five cars come past on the hourly Swansea trains via Gloucester.

 

[PHILIPE]

Bad day today; apparently only 23 sets available for 32 diagrams I've seen plenty of five cars come past on the hourly Swansea trains via Gloucester.

Posted here this morning:-

www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gwrs-recent-declining-performance.165718

Could have gone on any of multiple threads

 

[pt_mad]

Does anyone know which 9 carriage unit worked 1G11 paddington to Cheltenham on the 18th and the 21st of June and what it's operating history is?

You could ask in the class 800 diagrams thread in the allocations sub forum?