Class 91 loco on its own at Leeds Station

[rich r]

Last night whilst I was waiting for my 16:48 train home from Leeds, loco 91132 came zipping through the station on its own - ie no coaches, no DVT. Is this something they often do?

What might be the reason for it (other than 91132's had a hard enough history as it is)? The only thing I could think of was that something was wrong with the loco at the front of the Kings Cross train, and so this one was being relocated to the front to power it.

Just curious as I haven't seen that happen before.

 

[43096]

Last night whilst I was waiting for my 16:48 train home from Leeds, loco 91132 came zipping through the station on its own - ie no coaches, no DVT. Is this something they often do?

What might be the reason for it (other than 91132's had a hard enough history as it is)? The only thing I could think of was that something was wrong with the loco at the front of the Kings Cross train, and so this one was being relocated to the front to power it.

Just curious as I haven't seen that happen before.

It was working 0Z14 1602 Doncaster West Yard - Neville Hill depot. It had been at Wabtec Doncaster for repair/overhaul and was going light engine to Neville Hill for return to service.

With Doncaster doing overhaul work on the 91 fleet, locos are moved to/from either Bounds Green or Neville Hill, depending on operational needs.

 

[ash39]

Often what they try and do is allocate the next loco due for overhaul onto a diagram that finishes the day at Leeds and retires to Neville Hill depot for the night.

Then the loco fresh out of works runs light to Neville Hill (as you witnessed), swaps places with the other loco which then runs light to Doncaster Wabtec, usually the next morning.

Saves a light engine running all the way to/from Bounds Green, though this does happen as well when locos go for unscheduled repairs and are needed back ASAP.

 

[rich r]

That's very interesting - thank you for the replies.

 

[ash39]

A few photos of such moves from the past couple of years -


91109 Leeds 15/12/2014 by Flash 3939, on Flickr


91121 Sandal & Agbrigg 23/06/2016 by Flash 3939, on Flickr


91127 Bentley 22/06/2016 by Flash 3939, on Flickr


91107 Leeds 13/08/2015 by Flash 3939, on Flickr

 

[Lockwood]

How long does it take to blow the cobwebs off of the blunt end controls before doing that?

 

[ash39]

Probably not long, they'll get used regularly enough shunting on and off of sets at Bounds Green.

 

[richardsun]

Out of curiosity, are the blunt end controls and cab fairly similar to the 'business' end, or are they more basic and stripped down, bearing in mind they aren't likely to see as much use?

 

[ash39]

More or less the same - they are essentially a dual cab loco in the conventional sense, the only unconventional aspect is the shape is different at each end to improve aero efficiency.

Some of the early HST power cars did have a basic 'shunt-only' set of controls at the coridoor end. I'm not sure if they were removed/isolated in later life.

I also think I remember reading that 90's and 91's had similar shunt controls by the cab doors, but not 100% on that one.

 

[Rhydgaled]

It was working 0Z14 1602 Doncaster West Yard - Neville Hill depot. It had been at Wabtec Doncaster for repair/overhaul and was going light engine to Neville Hill for return to service.

With Doncaster doing overhaul work on the 91 fleet, locos are moved to/from either Bounds Green or Neville Hill, depending on operational needs.

Out of curiosity, are the blunt end controls and cab fairly similar to the 'business' end, or are they more basic and stripped down, bearing in mind they aren't likely to see as much use?

Since you are discussing class 91 cabs and overhauls, I note that Roger Ford has some pictures of an ETCS Level 2 driver-machine interface screen in this month's Modern Railways which he writes were "taken while 'driving' the Virgin Trains East Coast Class 91 simulator." I didn't think the 91s had ETCS, so does the overhaul work at Doncaster include fitting them with it? And is that the programme for which Virgin are leasing class 90s as cover for 91s or is that work taking place elsewhere?

 

[43096]

Some of the early HST power cars did have a basic 'shunt-only' set of controls at the coridoor end. I'm not sure if they were removed/isolated in later life.

Only the prototype power cars had controls at the corridor end, and it is believed they were never used.

 

[Cowley]

Only the prototype power cars had controls at the corridor end, and it is believed they were never used.

(Wildly off topic but not worth starting a new thread over.)
Does 41001 still have the second set of controls? And if so, do they still work?

 

[AnonymousUser1]

More or less the same - they are essentially a dual cab loco in the conventional sense, the only unconventional aspect is the shape is different at each end to improve aero efficiency.

Some of the early HST power cars did have a basic 'shunt-only' set of controls at the coridoor end. I'm not sure if they were removed/isolated in later life.

I also think I remember reading that 90's and 91's had similar shunt controls by the cab doors, but not 100% on that one.

IIRC the reason the 91 has a cab at the blunt end is that they were originally planned to be used on the sleepers and 'fast and light' goods such as parcels / mails / newspapers ... however the break up of BR and the utilisation of the Cl91 on ECML 'day ' workings put paid to that

 

[43096]

(Wildly off topic but not worth starting a new thread over.)
Does 41001 still have the second set of controls? And if so, do they still work?

Yes and no. AIUI it seems likely that they were never commissioned for use.

 

[Adam0984]

One went to Doncaster earlier on yesterday
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O08457/2018/06/13/advanced

 

[Cowley]

Yes and no. AIUI it seems likely that they were never commissioned for use.

Ah thanks for that. I’ve only looked through the window once and that was at the NRM years ago.

 

[DarloRich]

i don't think in all my years living and travelling on the East Coast I have ever seen a 91 run on it's own.

 

[GrahamD83]

On the subject of 91's is there any news on the future of 91119? There was a topic on it a few months ago.

 

[SteveyBee131]

...I also think I remember reading that 90's and 91's had similar shunt controls by the cab doors, but not 100% on that one.

They were indeed built with shunting controls. Think they had an early example of single power/brake control lever and other basic things like horn, AWS reset, master switch, but may stand corrected. Would be interesting to see pics. Also to know if they were ever used and if they still have them.

 

[Highlandspring]

Here you go...

 

[whhistle]

To put the photo above into proper surroundings context, here's a photo of it in situ:

While slightly off-topic, apparently this is an HST blunty cab:

And Dawlish Trains has a good photo of the "slab end" 91:

And the non-driving position:

 

[SteveyBee131]

Very interesting photos and diagrams, thank you both

 

[E_Reeves]

Here you go...

View attachment 48344

View attachment 48345

I always wondered what those levers were for!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

i don't think in all my years living and travelling on the East Coast I have ever seen a 91 run on it's own.

Nor have I. I have had haulage behind a blunt-end first 91 after it ran round at Peterborough due to a fault on the DVT. Also (IIRC) seen 89001 leaving Wakefield Westgate southbound, coupled nose-to-nose with the DVT.

 

[rich r]

Nor have I. I have had haulage behind a blunt-end first 91 after it ran round at Peterborough due to a fault on the DVT. Also (IIRC) seen 89001 leaving Wakefield Westgate southbound, coupled nose-to-nose with the DVT.

I feel lucky to have been waiting for a delayed TPE train the other day, looking across towards Platform 8 contemplating whether to get the Northern 158 instead when the 91 came through...

 

[Highlandspring]

Very interesting photos and diagrams, thank you both

I should have added that speed is automatically restricted to 30mph when the auxiliary driving controls are used.

 

[xotGD]

Just to add to the mix, yesterday evening an EMT HST powercar was heading through Leeds on its own, headed towards Neville Hill.

 

[alexl92]

IIRC the reason the 91 has a cab at the blunt end is that they were originally planned to be used on the sleepers and 'fast and light' goods such as parcels / mails / newspapers ... however the break up of BR and the utilisation of the Cl91 on ECML 'day ' workings put paid to that

My understanding is that the idea was they’d be used on the normal East Coast services during the day and Parcels/express freight overnight. When working on the MKIV sets they would only ever need the sharp end cab because they had a DVT at the other, and when working freight/parcels the 110mph restriction for blunt-end running wouldn’t be an issue either.

Never heard the sleeper thing before but then again, I’m not an authority on the subject so you’re probably right!

 

[Rhydgaled]

Since you are discussing class 91 cabs and overhauls, I note that Roger Ford has some pictures of an ETCS Level 2 driver-machine interface screen in this month's Modern Railways which he writes were "taken while 'driving' the Virgin Trains East Coast Class 91 simulator." I didn't think the 91s had ETCS, so does the overhaul work at Doncaster include fitting them with it? And is that the programme for which Virgin are leasing class 90s as cover for 91s or is that work taking place elsewhere?

Does nobody here know?

 

[Condor7]

This was a shot I took in 2013.

https://condor7.smugmug.com/Transport/Railway-stills/i-Pg2dTxc/A