Commission should not be paid to Guards who missell tickets

[yorkie]

Scotrail not accommodating delays on advance tickets

I am travelling London to Inverurie today on three advance tickets (London to Durham, Durham to Edinburgh and Edinburgh to Inverurie). My first train from London was terminated at York and the next was 40 mins late so I missed the 11.30 from Edinburgh to Aberdeen I was booked on. The guard on...

www.railforums.co.uk

I would like to see the system changed so that commission is not paid to Guards who mis-sell tickets, either due to refusal to accept a valid ticket or due to selling a more expensive ticket than the lowest priced valid ticket.

If it's not possible to prevent the issuing of it, then it should later be docked from their pay at a later date.

I would also like to see more robust safeguards in place to detect and prevent such instances, including mystery shopping.

And if such instances continue and the industry isn't able to put sufficient measures in place, then consideration should be given to abolishing commission entirely.

 

[Haywain]

I would like to see the system changed so that commission is not paid to Guards who mis-sell tickets, either due to refusal to accept a valid ticket or due to selling a more expensive ticket than the lowest priced valid ticket.

How do you plan to monitor this?

 

[LowLevel]

You'd create an industry in it's self there just in case there was the odd issue. Commission is also often offset so the dates don't align with pay and it gets complex. Quite a few TOCs don't have commission at all but still have "desperate" guards.

When a passenger buys a Northern Only ticket from an online retailer or TVM and boards a different company's train can we have the same functionality installed to strip the retailer and the TOC of their funds and redistribute to the "victim" TOC, along with the sale of a new ticket, with the retailer's portion going to the detecting guard as a reward? (I jest )

When I started on the railway there were guards who were mad about commission going to insane lengths to make money, and you could back then. Selling tickets to long distance passengers on board regularly boosted your takings.

Nowadays I don't really know anyone who pays attention to their commission.

At my TOC the ticket in question would be worth £1.61 before tax to the guard selling it, and that's quite a big on board sale these days.

You'd hope words of advice would be had because the quoted scenario clearly isn't on, but recouping £1.61 would be a lot of effort.

 

[Narrowgauge725]

As we are not supposed to board trains without a valid ticket why are guards selling tickets

 

[renegademaster]

As we are not supposed to board trains without a valid ticket why are guards selling tickets

Only if said station has signs warning about penalty fares and the relevant TOC issues them. Not that any authoritative list exists of said stations so you have to check before you board, but lots of rural ones don't have ticket machines hence it not applying to everywhere

 

[Haywain]

Only if said station has signs warning about penalty fares and the relevant TOC issues them.

This is wrong. The need to purchase a ticket before boarding is not restricted to stations that fall within Penalty Fare schemes.

 

[Iskra]

As we are not supposed to board trains without a valid ticket why are guards selling tickets

It’s perfectly legitimate to board a train with no ticket if there are no ticket buying facilities at that station.

You'd create an industry in it's self there just in case there was the odd issue. Commission is also often offset so the dates don't align with pay and it gets complex. Quite a few TOCs don't have commission at all but still have "desperate" guards.

When a passenger buys a Northern Only ticket from an online retailer or TVM and boards a different company's train can we have the same functionality installed to strip the retailer and the TOC of their funds and redistribute to the "victim" TOC, along with the sale of a new ticket, with the retailer's portion going to the detecting guard as a reward? (I jest )

When I started on the railway there were guards who were mad about commission going to insane lengths to make money, and you could back then. Selling tickets to long distance passengers on board regularly boosted your takings.

Nowadays I don't really know anyone who pays attention to their commission.

At my TOC the ticket in question would be worth £1.61 before tax to the guard selling it, and that's quite a big on board sale these days.

You'd hope words of advice would be had because the quoted scenario clearly isn't on, but recouping £1.61 would be a lot of effort.

In my opinion, commission should be abolished as it disincentivises offering value for money, where that exists.

 

[LowLevel]

It’s perfectly legitimate to board a train with no ticket if there are no ticket buying facilities at that station.


In my opinion, commission should be abolished as it disincentivises offering value for money, where that exists.

Back when fares available on board were simple it never really made much difference. I don't think it does now - we still have plenty of routes where buying on board is permitted and things like regular split tickets are routinely offered.

I think the point I'm trying to make is that commission is worth so little nowadays it doesn't really enter your head in the way it used to. I could make £35 on an ordinary train 10 years ago in commission (screw you old Northern for installing that ticket machine at Dore ) whereas now the vast majority of my sales are local journeys, even weekly tickets are rare and you might get the occasional foreigner or stressed out person buying a longer distance ticket wanting to speak to a human outside booking office hours.

Personally I think I should be abolished in exchange for a decent ticket scanning agreement - people rail against that but my view on it is quite different - the thing with being a guard is that all the processes, bar actually interacting with humans, are hugely repetitive with there being no real stretch apart from just getting on with it. Great if you like trains and passengers, not so good if you're a "normal human being" after a while.

Having something to aim for significantly improves performance. I've noticed since commission dwindled to irrelevance the amount of apathy has increased significantly - whereas on Northern it's rare to not see the guard.

It'll not be as much as commission ever was but it gives you something to work towards.

To illustrate - as someone who is always up and down trains my sales commission, before deductions, for an entire 4 week pay period is now usually between £70 and £100.

 

[Haywain]

I think I should be abolished

You're going a bit far there!!

 

[Narrowgauge725]

Accepting that some stations don’t have ticket machines, why on earth should guards get commission for selling a ticket? If I work in the ticket office I bet o wouldn’t get a commission.

 

[LowLevel]

Accepting that some stations don’t have ticket machines, why on earth should guards get commission for selling a ticket? If I work in the ticket office I bet o wouldn’t get a commission.

It was introduced by BR as a sweetener for guards taking on more general ticket selling duties as part of the "open stations" concept and removal of ticket offices as well as the removal of many on board "travelling ticket inspectors".

Different times. That said where I work it was previously removed and then brought back again for "local" guards so the management must have deemed it worthwhile in exchange for something at the time.

You're going a bit far there!!

Well, I've had a good run

 

[Haywain]

the management must have deemed it worthwhile in exchange for something at the time.

Management and union, and I suspect that the latter would be quite hostile to the removal of commission payments.

 

[Harpers Tate]

1: Proper, 100% accurate follow-up to all complaints or refund requests.
2: Customer compensated for their unwarranted outlay PLUS a goodwill payment on top
3: Negative commision applied to the ticket vendor where the customer is not at fault. (Learn the rules - don't make them up as you go).

 

[Krokodil]

Accepting that some stations don’t have ticket machines, why on earth should guards get commission for selling a ticket? If I work in the ticket office I bet o wouldn’t get a commission.

A booking office clerk sits behind a desk and the customers come to them. There's not a lot of opportunity for improving productivity through incentives.

 

[methecooldude]

... due to selling a more expensive ticket than the lowest priced valid ticket.

Eh? NRCoT 9.2 and more over 9.2.1 is clear on that one:

If you are unable to present a valid Ticket when asked and the conditions set out in Condition 6 do not apply, we are permitted in law to take one of the following measures:
9.2.1 To charge you the full undiscounted “anytime” single fare to a station directly served by the train that you are on. You will not be entitled to any discounts or special terms, or to a Ticket to a station other than one served by the train that you are on;

So a guard that sells the lowest priced valid ticket does so under their own discretion, but is at no liberty to do so. Now, granted, the example given in the thread you created this on the bases of is a very poor showing of the Guard themselves as 9.4 exists, however I do not except the representation by you that ALL tickets that a guard sells have to be the lowest price, that is determined by 9.5

Where you:

9.5.1 are using a time-restricted Ticket (such as an “off-peak” or “super-off-peak” Ticket) that is correctly dated but invalid for the service on which you are travelling; or
9.5.2 are using a route for which your Ticket is not valid; or
9.5.3 break your journey when you are not permitted to do so;

you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.

So if someone has not purchased a ticket at all, should they be charged the lowest price even though a TVM and/or ticket office and/or various methods of online booking (yes, I know the NRCoT doesn't really cover them in the context of 6.1) are available? I would suggest not per 9.2.1

 

[yorkie]

Eh? NRCoT 9.2 and more over 9.2.1 is clear on that one:

So a guard that sells the lowest priced valid ticket does so under their own discretion, but is at no liberty to do so.

If the customer had an opportunity to buy before boarding, and there are no mitigating circumstances, then the customer can be charged a higher than normal fare, where it is appropriate to do so.

But that isn't what I was talking about; I was talking about instances of mis-selling, for example if a passenger is entitled to a ticket then they must be sold that ticket, and not charged extra.

Now, granted, the example given in the thread you created this on the bases of is a very poor showing of the Guard themselves as 9.4 exists, however I do not except the representation by you that ALL tickets that a guard sells have to be the lowest price, that is determined by 9.5

The Guard should sell the lowest priced ticket that is applicable to the circumstances, that is what I am getting at.

So if someone has not purchased a ticket at all, should they be charged the lowest price even though a TVM and/or ticket office and/or various methods of online booking (yes, I know the NRCoT doesn't really cover them in the context of 6.1) are available? I would suggest not per 9.2.1

If a passenger has not purchased a ticket at all, and there are no mitigating circumstances, then the Anytime fare can be charged, however the route should still be appropriate.

There has been a misunderstanding of the purpose of this thread; the point here is about mis-selling of products, which should not happen.

The opening line of my post referred to "I would like to see the system changed so that commission is not paid to Guards who mis-sell tickets"; for example if a passenger ignores the ticket office at York and boards a train heading to Leeds via Harrogate, the Guard is entitled to charge the Anytime fare, but the route should still be via Harrogate.

 

[DanNCL]

Scotrail not accommodating delays on advance tickets

I am travelling London to Inverurie today on three advance tickets (London to Durham, Durham to Edinburgh and Edinburgh to Inverurie). My first train from London was terminated at York and the next was 40 mins late so I missed the 11.30 from Edinburgh to Aberdeen I was booked on. The guard on...

www.railforums.co.uk

I would like to see the system changed so that commission is not paid to Guards who mis-sell tickets, either due to refusal to accept a valid ticket or due to selling a more expensive ticket than the lowest priced valid ticket.

If it's not possible to prevent the issuing of it, then it should later be docked from their pay at a later date.

I would also like to see more robust safeguards in place to detect and prevent such instances, including mystery shopping.

And if such instances continue and the industry isn't able to put sufficient measures in place, then consideration should be given to abolishing commission entirely.

Love this idea. Maybe then certain guards might either start to do their jobs properly or choose to leave.

 

[bramling]

Scotrail not accommodating delays on advance tickets

I am travelling London to Inverurie today on three advance tickets (London to Durham, Durham to Edinburgh and Edinburgh to Inverurie). My first train from London was terminated at York and the next was 40 mins late so I missed the 11.30 from Edinburgh to Aberdeen I was booked on. The guard on...

www.railforums.co.uk

I would like to see the system changed so that commission is not paid to Guards who mis-sell tickets, either due to refusal to accept a valid ticket or due to selling a more expensive ticket than the lowest priced valid ticket.

If it's not possible to prevent the issuing of it, then it should later be docked from their pay at a later date.

I would also like to see more robust safeguards in place to detect and prevent such instances, including mystery shopping.

And if such instances continue and the industry isn't able to put sufficient measures in place, then consideration should be given to abolishing commission entirely.

I agree in principle, though I imagine it would be a nightmare to implement in practice.

In an ideal world I’d be looking to get rid of commission altogether, but again that would introduce its own problems.

Good management and supervision is probably the solution, but the industry often doesn’t do this well.

 

[En]

As we are not supposed to board trains without a valid ticket why are guards selling tickets

* in a penalty fare area *
outside the PF areas even if a ticket machine is available on the station is it working / are theur sufficent numbers easily accessible to all directions of travel that the loss of one or more machines doesn't make it impractical to get a ticket ?... ( remembering there are various stations where access to the 'other ' platform to any Station building is by going off railway premises using the level crossing / road bridge and then re-entering the railway premises to access the platform ( Newark Castle, Metheringham to mention two that immediately spring to mind from my stomping grounds)

 

[Bletchleyite]

How do you plan to monitor this?

Presumably if a ticket was refunded because it shouldn't have been sold the TOC would know who sold it and could thus recover any commission? One would hope that they are monitoring such things anyway, so if a particular guard is repeatedly selling tickets that should not be sold they can be retrained so they stop doing so.

 

[Krokodil]

Presumably if a ticket was refunded because it shouldn't have been sold the TOC would know who sold it and could thus recover any commission?

Well yes, it's technically possible. Is it practical though? How much staff time is going to be devoted to this?