Compagnie Internationale des Wagons-Lits (CIWL)

[StephenHunter]

Thought this company warranted its own thread. I own their Summer 1965 timetable book, in French, which includes berth plans of their entire fleet, a through list of supplement charges... and an advert for hunting trips showing two shirtless black men carrying a dead young leopard on a stick.

It covers African and Middle East operations too (their Asian ones had long been nationalised by this point), including an overnight service on the 1000m gauge Abidjan (Ivory Coast) to Ouagadougou (Upper Volta, now Burkina Faso) line.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

A small number of CIWL build - I assume immediate post-war - Restaurant Cars survived and ran on the Brussels - Basel axis into the early 1990's.
I enjoyed an excellent lunch in one - still in CIWL blue - between Strasbourg and Basel in the eighties and I have seen a published photo of one by then in 'standard' orange with white band livery in 1993.
Winter 1987/88 menu flyer attached.

 

[S&CLER]

Some of the worst catering I've experienced on a train was provided by CIWL between Luxor and Aswan about 20 years ago.

 

[WesternLancer]

Some of the worst catering I've experienced on a train was provided by CIWL between Luxor and Aswan about 20 years ago.

Even worse than the 'free' 1st class meals that Cross Country trains were providing in recent years?

 

[Cowley]

I’m struggling a bit here. Is CIWL Wagons Lits? If so what does the ‘CI’ stand for?

 

[superalbs]

I’m struggling a bit here. Is CIWL Wagons Lits? If so what does the ‘CI’ stand for?

Compagnie Internationale?

 

[Cowley]

Compagnie Internationale?

Thanks!

 

[davetheguard]

Some of the worst catering I've experienced on a train was provided by CIWL between Luxor and Aswan about 20 years ago.

Sounds like an "experience"; want to tell us more?

I had no idea Wagons Lit operated outside Europe, anyone have any more details?

 

[S&CLER]

Sounds like an "experience"; want to tell us more?

I had no idea Wagons Lit operated outside Europe, anyone have any more details?

It was a miserably inadequate trolley, tired and tasteless sandwiches of a single sweaty cheese slice on dry curling white bread rolls, dry biscuits, foul coffee, no fruit. I can't recall if there were any alcoholic drinks available; in a Muslim country you can't really expect them outside tourist hotels and cruise ships. Bar staff in Egypt are often Coptic Christians anyway; not sure if that applies to the Egyptian staff of CIWLT.

 

[WesternLancer]

I had no idea Wagons Lit operated outside Europe, anyone have any more details?

I think Andrew Martin lists the beyond europe CIWL services in his book IIRC - this one, which I enjoyed reading

Night Trains by Andrew Martin​

Night Trains by Andrew Martin – a nostalgic lament for a bygone age

The author demonstrates how today’s sleeper trains are a shadow of their former selves as he makes six journeys across Europe

www.theguardian.com

 

[StephenHunter]

Sounds like an "experience"; want to tell us more?

I had no idea Wagons Lit operated outside Europe, anyone have any more details?

One of their Chinese services

The original full name was Compagnie Internationale des Wagons-Lits (et des grands express européens) or International Sleeping-Car (and European Great Expresses) Company

 

[davetheguard]

It was a miserably inadequate trolley, tired and tasteless sandwiches of a single sweaty cheese slice on dry curling white bread rolls, dry biscuits, foul coffee, no fruit. I can't recall if there were any alcoholic drinks available; in a Muslim country you can't really expect them outside tourist hotels and cruise ships. Bar staff in Egypt are often Coptic Christians anyway; not sure if that applies to the Egyptian staff of CIWLT.

My only experience of "travelling" (if you can call it that) on Egyptian Railways was when, on holiday in Luxor in the early 90s, I wandered down the station in the hope of taking some photographs.

I had no idea on what the law was on doing this, and so I knocked on the Stationmaster's office door and asked for permission. Next thing I knew an underling had been allocated to me and I was told to follow him. We jumped down off the platform edge, walked over to the shed, climbed up on to a loco, where I was introduced to Mohammed the driver of the overnight train to Cairo.

We got the road off the shed, over the points, and backed down on to the train.

Great fun. Perhaps one day I'll get to ride the Luxor to Cairo train all the way rather than just a few hundred meters.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

This is not strictly CIWL but related.

I made my first European mainland sleeping car trip in 1981. This was from Stuttgart to Hamburg which of course was operated by DSG rather than CIWL.

My 1981 TEN European Sleeping Car Timetable lists two trains, D898 21.10 to Kiel via Frankfurt (Hamburg Hbf 08.19) booked sleeping car type AB33, and D890 22.18 direct to Hamburg - Hbf 07.14, Altona 07.31, booked sleepers AB33 and T2S.
Whilst I cannot be sure which train I caught on that occasion, over the years I made many subsequent trips in both AB33 and T2s but the sleeping car I travelled in on this occasion was neither. What distinguished it was the compartment was not of the regular rectangular shape but whilst the beds were on a straight wall the partition to the next compartment was angled. I later experienced a similar layout in either Norway or Sweden (or possibly both).

The closest 'plan' I can find to match this is for a YU type shown in a late 1980s Thomas Cook publication (attached) which states the then remaining cars were in internal use in Greece and between Athens and Venice (an identical YU plan is in my 1981 TEN Timetable where they are described as CIWL).

My question is, does anyone know what type of (presumably older) sleeping car would have been in use by DSG at this time.

I did subsequently attempt to travel in one of the Greek YU examples but as I marched up the platform in Venice clutching a sleeper reservation for the two night journey to Athens I realised the train was even shorter than shown on the platform train formation information board and the missing vehicle was the sleeping car! I managed to secure a berth in a JZ couchette as far as Skopje and thereafter the train was seats only - or so I thought as on arrival in Athens I then found the coaches added at Thessaloniki around midnight included couchettes!

Another failed attempt to travel in a YU was when I spotted through the window of my Brussels bound sleeper around midnight in Basel an 'older' sleeping car working Innsbruck to Paris on the Arlberg Express. Reasoning the car would return to Innsbruck the next night I hastily revised my itinerary when I arrived in Brussels that next morning and booked a sleeper Paris to Sargans on the Arlberg Express for that night, but on claiming my berth that evening found the normal MU in the formation instead.

 

[StephenHunter]

Railways of Germany forum might be the best to ask.

The Z type also had dividers like that.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Railways of Germany forum might be the best to ask.

The Z type also had dividers like that.

Thanks for that, I will follow up through Railways of Germany.

I recall a trip in a YF from Madrid to Heulva in 1985 which has to be the most uncomfortable journey I ever made in a sleeping car. Originally the YFs for Spain offered only one or two berths per compartment, but some later ones had two compartments at the end of the car with three berths and I was in one of these, my berth on top of the bogie, a bottom berth which seemed to be almost touching the wheels! Whether due to the condition of the suspension or of the track or a combination of both I will never know, but I felt every set of points that night - or so it seemed although maybe I did drift off to sleep at some point only to be woken again by the next set of points!
From Huelva I continued to Ayamonte and took the small ferry across to Villa Real de Santo Antonio in Portugal and thence by local train to Faro. I took the late evening Rapido north which was quite exhilarating, just three coaches behind a CP class 50 clone, this took me to Barreiro for the ferry transfer across the Tagus to Lisbon - no direct trains across the river back then. My return to Madrid was on the day train from Lisbon in one of the RENFE T.E.R. sets.

Attached are some photos taken in Madrid on another occasion in 1988.
top - a YF at the head of a rake of WLs
middle - a close up of the badge on one of these, by now without the full 'et des grande express europeens' lettering
bottom- an older sleeper (possibly an Lx type (?)) looking as if it is now providing accommodation in an engineering train

Somewhere I do have a photo of the badge with full lettering which I will post when it emerges, also some of the Wagon Restaurant referred to in post 2.

 

[StephenHunter]

3501 is an Lx and appears to be still around on the Al-Andulas Express luxury train, albeit with a heavily modified interior.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

More photos as promised.

The Restaurant Car (post 2) seen after arrival in the SNCF platforms at Basel, and later in the sidings. Clearly it is not blue (as previously recalled by my fading memory) but in the standard orange adopted by several countries for Euro City workings. Not surprisingly it is stencilled for 160kph max speed although by then I am sure Strasbourg to Basel was a 200kph route. I am sure blue livery would have helped camouflage the smoke around the kitchen windows far better than the orange.

Also a photo of the 'full' CIWL badge, this vehicle from one of the restored luxury train and marshalled next to SBB stock so presumably not VSOE although with similar status not surprisingly well polished. And the counterfoil of my Madrid to Huelva sleeper berth from 1985 (post 15), berth 11 - the bottom berth in compartment 1 on top of the bogie for which I had parted with £6.50.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

I see the Bluebell Railway has put a number of vehicles up for sale including an ex Night Ferry Sleeping car - also 3 LMS and 1 Mk1 sleepers.

 

[WesternLancer]

I see the Bluebell Railway has put a number of vehicles up for sale including an ex Night Ferry Sleeping car - also 3 LMS and 1 Mk1 sleepers.

Interesting- those are rare vehicles - shame Bluebell have / see not future for them - given they have such a superb record on carriage restoration. I fear they will be very much at risk....

Interesting to read the full details - inc original features (+ asbestos...) in the LMS sleepers

https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/temp/bluebell_carriage_disposals.pdf

I doubt Bluebell have given up on these lightly, but sad there is not enough money for all the interesting stuff out there...

 

[StephenHunter]

Wonder what market there would be for a "vintage sleeper" hotel? I know there's one in France.

 

[WesternLancer]

Wonder what market there would be for a "vintage sleeper" hotel? I know there's one in France.

well, they do exist - eg these Pullmans at Petworth former station - but I think actual sleepers often considered too small for guest accom market preferences

Restaurant and Accommodation in Pullman Carriages | The Old Railway Station, Petworth, West Sussex | England

Fine Dining Restaurant with Unusual and Romantic Accomodation in Pullman Carriages, Bed, Breakfast and Tearooms in The Original Waiting Room The Old Railway Station, Petworth, West Sussex, England

www.old-station.co.uk

any carriage from the Night Ferry must have a certain mystique about it however! But the survival of one at the NRM means this one probably not as rare as the LMS ones.

 

[StephenHunter]

There are five survivors in total of the Type Fs from the 25 built - the other three are in France.

 

[WesternLancer]

There are five survivors in total of the Type Fs from the 25 built - the other three are in France.

any idea on condition?

 

[StephenHunter]

any idea on condition?

None of them anywhere close to the Shildon example.

 

[WesternLancer]

None of them anywhere close to the Shildon example.

Thanks

 

[Townsend Hook]

Possibly worth mentioning that a number of K-class Pullman cars, built in the UK by BRC&W, were initially used in Italy by CIWL during the mid-1920s before returning to the UK for Pullman Car Company services. Three survive: Kitchen Firsts ‘Lydia’ (in storage at Pershore Airfield) and ‘Ibis’ (operational with the Belmond British Pullman); and Parlour First ‘Leona’ (in storage at Carnforth).