Compulsory Ticket Areas (CTA)

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It struck only knowingly having ever been in one, that these are ridiculous and must surely be unenforceable. I'm now even sure what their purpose really is, as surely that's what a Penalty Fare is for?

I have only very recently realised that the Tram area outside East Croydon is a CTA, this seems very weird considering is basically an extension of the bus station which isn't (AFAIK) a CTA.

Also its possible to walk straight into it without seeing the incredibly tiny signs at the ends of the "platforms" (or what I would call the pavement).

If one exits the "main doors" at East Croydon and goes straight ahead then you end up immediately on the tram platform without having the opportunity to see any signs. The same is true if coming from "One Croydon" / the bus station, and from other directions too. In fact I think the main pedestrian crossing goes through the CTA.

I suppose the main point of the ramble is what are they (CTA) for?

 

[duffield]

Same in Nottingham; what are actually bits of pavement (that double as tram stops) are supposedly Compulsory Ticket Areas, I can't see what legal status they can really have. At many tram stops you could only avoid the CTA by walking in the road.

 

[Stigy]

There are very few CTAs on the rail network. It’s very strange that to all intents and purposes the public highway is almost one where the Croydon Tramlink is concerned. Sometimes people are confused (staff mainly) in that they assume any railway station within the ticket barriered area is a CTA, where in reality, that isn’t the case. I believe the Tube in London was the only CTA zag least until very recently. The very fact that 90% of tube stations were barriered allowed this.

 

[jha4ceb]

When I saw the East Croydon tram CTA sign, I understood it as follows: "If you have just got off a tram, we can still check your ticket and penalise you if you don't have one - it doesn't matter that you're not on the tram any more." I don't think it's meant to preclude people without tram tickets from walking on the platform area. I could be wrong though!

 

[yorkie]

If one exits the "main doors" at East Croydon and goes straight ahead then you end up immediately on the tram platform without having the opportunity to see any signs. The same is true if coming from "One Croydon" / the bus station, and from other directions too. In fact I think the main pedestrian crossing goes through the CTA.

I suppose the main point of the ramble is what are they (CTA) for?

In this case there is a clause stating that you are not guilty if you did not alight from a tram. But it's still a ridiculous concept really.
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/tramlink-byelaws.pdf

No person at a tramstop or a station compulsory ticket area shall be in breach of this Byelaw 19 unless he came there by alighting from a tram.

 

[The_Train]

Is there anywhere that you can find a comprehensive list of stations that fall under this category?

 

[snowball]

I believe the Tube in London was the only CTA zag least until very recently.

What's a zag?

 

[Surreytraveller]

What's a zag?

A typing error I think. Should have read 'zone' Could be wrong, though

 

[Surreytraveller]

Wellesley Road tram stop in Croydon is worse - it's effectively the pavement, and unless you walk on the carriageway, you cannot avoid entering the compulsory ticket area

 

[swt_passenger]

Wellesley Road tram stop in Croydon is worse - it's effectively the pavement, and unless you walk on the carriageway, you cannot avoid entering the compulsory ticket area

Which doesnt actually matter, unless you are witnessed by revenue staff getting off a tram, as Yorkie explained earlier.

 

[maniacmartin]

You also need to enter the Croydon tram CTA to get to the Oyster reader to validate your card for a pay as you go journey. There are a number of National Rail stations that also have their Oyster validators well into the CTA too!

 

[furlong]

There are a number of National Rail stations that also have their Oyster validators well into the CTA too!

Examples? That ought to be reported to the DfT (and the CTAs suspended until it's fixed).

 

[Surreytraveller]

Which doesnt actually matter, unless you are witnessed by revenue staff getting off a tram, as Yorkie explained earlier.

I am aware of that, but your average pedestrian isn't going to read this forum, or swot up on the byelaws before wandering onto the tram stop, as there is nothing to indicate at the tramstop that it is perfectly legal for them to ignore the compulsory ticket signs and use the tramstop as a pavement.

 

[Stigy]

A typing error I think. Should have read 'zone' Could be wrong, though

Should have been “at least until very recently”. Apparently ‘at’ isn’t a word but ‘zag’ is

I’ll admit, it wasn’t very well written on my part though.

 

[sprunt]

Which doesnt actually matter, unless you are witnessed by revenue staff getting off a tram, as Yorkie explained earlier.

But does that mean that a passenger alighting can't be challenged after they're outside the CTA?

 

[swt_passenger]

But does that mean that a passenger alighting can't be challenged after they're outside the CTA?

Don’t really have a clue. That’s possibly a separate can of worms, comparable to revenue staff operating ‘just outside’ station premises...

 

[transmanche]

But does that mean that a passenger alighting can't be challenged after they're outside the CTA?

No. It simply a device which means they don't have to prove intent to avoid payment. They simply need to observe you alighting from a tram and ask you to prove that you possess a ticket. it also means that they could PF you if you boarded a tram, but jumped off before departure because you saw an RPI on-board.

A CTA is probably more useful where paper tickets are used. For example, on the Tyne & Wear Metro all stations are CTAs (or 'Metro paid areas' in their parlance). All litter bins inside the CTA have a sticker saying not to put tickets in the bin, but to retain them until exiting the station. The end result is that if you bin your ticket before exiting the CTA, you can still be given for a PF as you can't provide evidence of holding a ticket. Without a CTA, I guess it would be harder for the railway to issue a PF in such circumstances, following a barrier check.

 

[LLivery]

Examples? That ought to be reported to the DfT (and the CTAs suspended until it's fixed).

The Ticket Machine and Oyster Reader are after the sign on Anerley's Northbound platform. Harringay Green Lanes as well I believe. Probably a few more LO stations...

 

[transmanche]

The Ticket Machine and Oyster Reader are after the sign on Anerley's Northbound platform. Harringay Green Lanes as well I believe. Probably a few more LO stations...

That's a bit naughty. Especially as there's no equivalent to Tramlink's byelaw 19(4) (that @yorkie mentioned in post #5) in the TfL Railway byelaws (which apply to the LU, LO and DLR networks).

 

[ess]

Why was Kings Cross Thameslink a CTA?

 

[transmanche]

Why was Kings Cross Thameslink a CTA?

Probably because it was directly connected to the LU station (which is a CTA) without any gatelines in between. Same would be true for Farringdon, Barbican and Moorgate.

 

[cactustwirly]

In this case there is a clause stating that you are not guilty if you did not alight from a tram. But it's still a ridiculous concept really.
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/tramlink-byelaws.pdf

If it is part of a public highway, or there is no signage then it is completely unenforceable IMO

 

[transmanche]

If it is part of a public highway, or there is no signage then it is completely unenforceable IMO

Clearly it is unenforceable, in the sense that anyone strolling onto a tram stop could be PF'd. That's why clause 19(4) of the byelaws exists, to make it clear that's not the intention.

But in the sense that anyone who has alighted from a tram must be in possession of a ticket or face a PF, it's easily enforceable.

 

[maniacmartin]

The Ticket Machine and Oyster Reader are after the sign on Anerley's Northbound platform. Harringay Green Lanes as well I believe. Probably a few more LO stations...

I haven’t been for a few years so it might have changed, but I recall Surrey Quays and Kensington Olympia both having ticket machines and even the staffed ticket offices beyond the CTA sign. It seems to be a London Overground thing.

 

[LLivery]

Hmm, I've always thought it to be odd and CTAs quite silly. People wait on platforms with their friends or loved ones all the time at non barriered and barriered stations.

As for the Trams, it's barely enforceable. I've seen people just hurl insults and walk off.

 

[LOL The Irony]

IMO, CTA's should only be enforced at tram stops if the stop is clearly not part of a public right of way.

 

[NoOnesFool]

Same in Nottingham; what are actually bits of pavement (that double as tram stops) are supposedly Compulsory Ticket Areas, I can't see what legal status they can really have. At many tram stops you could only avoid the CTA by walking in the road.

Many years ago, I Emailed NET, out of curiosity, and they told me that the CTA only applies to people "waiting on the platforms for the trams", make of that wording what you will..

 

[NoOnesFool]

IMO, CTA's should only be enforced at tram stops if the stop is clearly not part of a public right of way.

I'm very much in favour of compulsory ticket areas and strict revenue protection enforcement, but I do agree with you on this, with regards to pavement type tram stops, island type tram stops are completely different ofcourse, and should absolutely be CTAs.

 

[takno]

I'm very much in favour of compulsory ticket areas and strict revenue protection enforcement, but I do agree with you on this, with regards to pavement type tram stops, island type tram stops are completely different ofcourse, and should absolutely be CTAs.

How about the ones where the island is in the middle of a pedestrian crossing and you have to be on it to get over the road?

 

[LOL The Irony]

How about the ones where the island is in the middle of a pedestrian crossing and you have to be on it to get over the road?

A pedestrian crossing counts as a public right of way. Any inspector who tries to fine you should be reported.