Connect Herts - new limited stop 7xx services from 19.11.23

[adamedwards]

A curious date for these to start!
In addition to the long established 724 Harlow - Hertford - Welwyn GC - Hatfield - St Albans - Watford - Uxbridge - Heathrow, there will be two new 7xx services run by Arriva as follows:

721 Luton to Hemel Hempstead
New service and part of the 'Connect Herts' Bus service improvement scheme (BSIP). Limited stop service operating between Luton, Harpenden, St Albans and Hemel Hempstead. Operates every 30 minutes Mondays to Saturdays.

725 Stevenage to Rickmansworth
New service and part of the 'Connect Herts' Bus service improvement scheme (BSIP). Limited stop service between Stevenage, Knebworth, Welwyn Garden City, Hatfield, St Albans, Watford and Rickmansworth. Operates hourly Mondays to Saturdays.

I hope the 725 will be spaced to run 30mins apart from the 724 from WGC to Rickmansworth, but I have no information to confirm this.

There is a 737 National Express coach Oxford - Milton Keynes - Hatfield (Galleria) - Stansted which connects at the Galleria with the 724 and I assume with the 725.

UNO are already running a new X10 fast Luton to Hatfield service, Monday to Friday, University of Hertfordshire termtime only.

There is a BSIP startegy document here:
https://images.intalink.org.uk/downloads/BusServiceImprovement_Hertfordshire_Oct21.pdf

 

[Saint66]

Bit of a surprise to see two new Arriva routes! Any idea when these will start?

The new X10 route was desperately needed. The 610 is often very busy or totally packed between Hatfield and Luton due to the amount of students that live in Luton (there were some additional 610 services operated by hired in coaches during the last academic year due to the overcrowding), so the new X10 will hopefully help take some pressure off of it.

 

[Edvid]

The 721/725 start on 19 November, per thread title. Plenty of changes to Arriva routes in Watford / Hemel Hempstead happening that day (noted on another thread).

There's also a holding page for Connect Herts on the Intalink site, though it only mentions the Centrebus-run 907 at present.

 

[richard13]

Intalink service changes for November here: Herts Nov changes

The new routes plus compensatory changes and restructure of the interurban routes in western Herts.

 

[A0]

Bit of a surprise to see two new Arriva routes! Any idea when these will start?

The new X10 route was desperately needed. The 610 is often very busy or totally packed between Hatfield and Luton due to the amount of students that live in Luton (there were some additional 610 services operated by hired in coaches during the last academic year due to the overcrowding), so the new X10 will hopefully help take some pressure off of it.

The X10 is at least commercially operated with Uno understanding the demand.

Herts County Council on the other hand seem to be throwing money around like a sailor spending their allowance on shore leave. And what is really frustrating is all of these are in competition with existing commercially operated services - the 907 they introduced shadowed the long standing, commercial 310 between Hertford and Cheshunt, this 721 is shadowing the 321 between St Albans and Luton and the 302 between St Albans and Hemel, the 725 is shadowing the 301, 302 between Stevenage and St Albans and the 724 between Welwyn Garden City and Rickmansworth. It's not providing anything new for which there seems to be a genuine demand.

 

[riceuten]

I would assume that the 725 won't be operated from Stevenage depot, as they only seem to be operating 40%-50% of the town services at the moment due to staff and bus shortages.

The 725 is shadowing the 301, 302 between Stevenage and St Albans and the 724 between Welwyn Garden City and Rickmansworth. It's not providing anything new for which there seems to be a genuine demand

Albeit that the 725 will be limited stop and the 301/2 seems to stop at every blade of grass, and operates 30-40 minutes late frequently. But yes, There seems to be an obsession with cross-county routes at the moment from HCC, with no actual regard to what is in demand.

The HERT ("misguided bus that's not a misguided bus") Harlow to Hemel route seems to have gone quiet recently. The graphics for it were hysterical - showing a bus from the waist up to hide the fact it wouldn't be a tram/train (which was what was originally envisaged). From the HCC website

"What type of vehicle will it be?​

The vision for The HERT is to provide zero-emission vehicles with a modern, comfortable and spacious design that is easy and accessible for all passengers to use.

The details around how the HERT will operate, the exact route it will take, and the type of vehicles it will use will be explored through detailed technical studies and further public engagement at a later stage"

 

[adamedwards]

HERT will only happen if the government writes a big cheque. I think Hertfordshire County Council got hopeful when Grant Shapps was in charge of Transport.
But being serious, something does need to be done to improve east west public transport or the next road project will be a massively expensive and damaging southern bypas of Hertford.

 

[RELL6L]

I agree that these look pretty bizarre - someone with some money and struggling to find what to spend it on!

Luton to Hemel Hempstead already has the 46 every hour. If it provide a combined frequency with the 321 between Luton and St Albans it could be quite useful, making it x15 combined instead of x20, it is quite a well-used route. But will it? Will it go the same way and serve all the same stops? And will it provide a combined frequency between St Albans and Hemel with existing routes? Do we need a bus connecting Harpenden and Hemel - we had the 307 for years but it was never busy.

Then will the 724 and 725 provide a combined frequency with the 321 between St Albans and Watford? Doubtful, I imagine they will want to be quicker. We've had buses from the A1 corridor across to Watford before and they didn't work.

Are they going to find someone to run these? Will Arriva want to run them - they don't seem to care about anything at the moment, eg not bidding for Fastrack, Manchester franchises etc.

I can see some of the sense in Arriva's changes, the 10/20 was fine in theory run from Hemel but didn't work in practice. Rickmansworth is a long way from Luton and it must be challenging to provide a reliable service - although I don't think they've done too badly on this. It's a long way from home but dead runs to Maple Cross via the M1 and M25 work quite well.

 

[Simon75]

So they will have normal branding rather than under Greenline?

 

[plebb11]

There is also an additional journey on service 907 operated by arriva and new route 906 operating between Stevenage and Welwyn garden city via knebworth.

 

[Edvid]

So they will have normal branding rather than under Greenline?

According to bustimes.org five E200 MMC buses in the Centrebus South fleet have Connect Herts 390/907 branding; YX23 ORY is one of them.

Based on this I expect an allocation of Arriva buses will receive similar branding. Whether those buses will stay on the CH routes is another matter; this is Arriva and its confusingly named divisions we're discussing after all. Wouldn't even rule out the odd Green Line appearance!

 

[Haywain]

Will it go the same way and serve all the same stops?

If the new service is limited stop it clearly won't serve all of the same stops.

 

[richard13]

I lived for about a decade in St Albans during the 80s. I was single and used a car to commute, but at weekends using the bus was quite frequent. Many of those journeys were inter-urban using the 724 and 321. I am less in touch today, but I suspect that a network of fast inter-urban services may get more people out of cars than running more slow local services. The 907 provides a fast link from Ware to Stevenage and my friend would have used in if it had existed only 5 years ago - the village route is just too slow and infrequent to be practical and so was done by taxi (on expenses).

Comparing speeds of the 721 to 321 and 46 over the same journey opportunities will be more enlightening, when the timetables appear. Likewise with the 725

 

[WAB]

The X10 is at least commercially operated with Uno understanding the demand.

Herts County Council on the other hand seem to be throwing money around like a sailor spending their allowance on shore leave. And what is really frustrating is all of these are in competition with existing commercially operated services - the 907 they introduced shadowed the long standing, commercial 310 between Hertford and Cheshunt, this 721 is shadowing the 321 between St Albans and Luton and the 302 between St Albans and Hemel, the 725 is shadowing the 301, 302 between Stevenage and St Albans and the 724 between Welwyn Garden City and Rickmansworth. It's not providing anything new for which there seems to be a genuine demand.

It is providing faster journey times which are needed to be more competitive with the car. Going here there and everywhere is not very attractive.

 

[A0]

It is providing faster journey times which are needed to be more competitive with the car. Going here there and everywhere is not very attractive.

If that theory about limited stop services being more popular because of the journey time were true, then on the Welwyn Garden City - St Albans corridor you might expect the 724 (which is limited stop) to be more popular than the 301 which basically shadows its route - but the reverse is true. The thing is people aren't usually travelling from town centre to town centre, but instead from near their home to a town centre or industrial area. So if the bus doesn't stop at the bus stop near their house they won't bother with it. So sticking with the 724 - after it stops at the QE2 hospital its next stop is the end of Howlands, yet about halfway along is the Hollybush where every other bus stops and is slap bang in the middle of a residential area.

 

[Haywain]

If that theory about limited stop services being more popular because of the journey time were true, then on the Welwyn Garden City - St Albans corridor you might expect the 724 (which is limited stop) to be more popular than the 301 which basically shadows its route - but the reverse is true. The thing is people aren't usually travelling from town centre to town centre, but instead from near their home to a town centre or industrial area. So if the bus doesn't stop at the bus stop near their house they won't bother with it. So sticking with the 724 - after it stops at the QE2 hospital its next stop is the end of Howlands, yet about halfway along is the Hollybush where every other bus stops and is slap bang in the middle of a residential area.

So what you are saying is that there are two services serving different markets.

 

[riceuten]

I don't think any kind of research has been done for any of these routes.

There USED to be a Uno service (a previous iteration of the 634/635 service from Stevenage to Hemel) that took around an hour to Hemel (against the 2 and a half hours with the 300/1) - I took it a few times - and there was Stevenage to Hatfield demand (as the bus took the A1(M)) , but I was often the only person going from Hatfield to Hemel. I am mystified as to why they are bringing these routes in. I've taken the 907 a few times - there is demand Stevenage to Hertford (as the bus fare is less than half the train fare and drops you off in the centre), but the bus always turns up empty to/from Cheshunt. Same with a limited stop service to Rickmansworth.

Similarly, in the opposite direction, we had a couple of routes (including at one point an extension of the 635!) to Bishops Stortford and Stansted - there are a few services on the 386 bus to Stortford, but to get to Stansted direct, there's now nothing. There could conceivably be traffic on that route to the airport.

 

[A0]

So what you are saying is that there are two services serving different markets.

What I'm saying, is I don't believe there's demand for the 'limited stop' market, particularly if it doesn't stop anywhere near where people live.

I don't think any kind of research has been done for any of these routes.

There USED to be a Uno service (a previous iteration of the 634/635 service from Stevenage to Hemel) that took around an hour to Hemel (against the 2 and a half hours with the 300/1) - I took it a few times - and there was Stevenage to Hatfield demand (as the bus took the A1(M)) , but I was often the only person going from Hatfield to Hemel. I am mystified as to why they are bringing these routes in. I've taken the 907 a few times - there is demand Stevenage to Hertford (as the bus fare is less than half the train fare and drops you off in the centre), but the bus always turns up empty to/from Cheshunt. Same with a limited stop service to Rickmansworth.

Similarly, in the opposite direction, we had a couple of routes (including at one point an extension of the 635!) to Bishops Stortford and Stansted - there are a few services on the 386 bus to Stortford, but to get to Stansted direct, there's now nothing. There could conceivably be traffic on that route to the airport.

I think the thing to remember about Uno's services is they are geared towards (and indeed were born out of) the need for transport links to the University. So whilst I'd expect a level of demand from Stevenage to Hatfield (bearing in mind Hatfield station isn't conveniently located for the University) and a lesser demand from Hatfield - Hemel (in part because of the distance) I'd expect virtually no demand between Stevenage and Hemel Hempstead.

On the 907, I wonder if it's just cannibalised the demand on the 390 though ? Hertford - Stevenage has never been that popular as a corridor - the rail service back in the 1970s was a bi-hourly DMU from Hertford - Huntingdon, then it "improved" to an hourly extension of a Moorgate - Hertford service to Letchworth. The 390 and other routes on the Stevenage - Hertford corridor were Herts CC contracts at deregulation, nobody registered them commercially.

The 635 extension IIRC came about because the 700 from Stevenage to Bishops Stortford / Stanstead was surrendered by whoever was operating it (Trustybus ?) and Uno picked it up dovetailing it with the 635. The thing to remember with Stanstead is it's over the border in Essex, so to an extent Herts County Council have no interest in serving it - and for many people in Hertfordshire there are other airports which are more convenient than Stanstead - Luton, Heathrow and even Gatwick with Thameslink. Go back to the 1980s or 1990s and at one point the 724 was extended from Harlow to Stanstead but that extension was canned, presumably due to lack of demand. Most people travelling from an airport won't use a local bus to get there - so the main demand is usually for airport workers - and if you're an airport worker on relatively low pay and live in Stevenage, you'll go for a job at Luton over Stanstead on location alone.

 

[jon0844]

I read parts of the huge Connect Herts PDF on the Hertfordshire County Council (HCC) website, and within that it does speak of trialling PAYG with tap on, tap off (starting from September 2023, although no idea if any operators are onboard with any trials?) and also - most importantly - online ticketing that will, finally, allow people to buy a ticket from home for rail travel that includes plusBUS - so, at last, you could get a bus TO the train station without having to have first visited the station and bought your ticket in advance.

Assuming HCC can work to making ticketing more simple and easy to understand, with decent information at bus stops and provided to people so they can buy tickets at home before travel, along with new services, they might just increase bus patronage.

I am not sure an hourly service is quite good enough, which ends too early and doesn't run on a Sunday, but I do think limited-stop buses are a good thing and should work well with local buses doing the intermediate stops. The concept of limited stop trains is perfectly well understood, and when I was growing up in Hertfordshire they used to have many more Green Line buses that were the express coaches you'd opt for if going from one town to another. If you missed one, or it didn't stop at your home stop, you got the slower bus.

I don't have high hopes for HCC getting things right as they regurgitate the same aspirations year after year, and it seems they spend a lot of money on consultations, leaflets, documents and other marketing material for local plans, but then do very little.

The lack of running information at most bus stops is a big problem. They don't need the fancy colour screens - many countries make do just fine with simple LCD displays that can run from a solar panel on the bus shelter roof - some with audio information at the push of a button. People want to know where their bus is, and while bustimes.org is arguably the best site - HCC isn't expected to promote that, but should have something similar to put on its bus stops with a QR code for people to scan. It's no good having people having to install an app for just one operator.

It has to get all of these things right, or else the new services won't achieve the success they deserve and will be used as justification to cut them - when we'll all know the real problem is getting people to use and trust public transport. Having lived in Hertfordshire almost all my life, I can fully understand why people are hesitant and will use other forms of transport if they can. Buses need to be something people see a benefit in using (either to save money on using a car, parking fees, being able to enjoy a drink out or whatever).

 

[AM9]

The lack of running information at most bus stops is a big problem. They don't need the fancy colour screens - many countries make do just fine with simple LCD displays that can run from a solar panel on the bus shelter roof - some with audio information at the push of a button. People want to know where their bus is, and while bustimes.org is arguably the best site - HCC isn't expected to promote that, but should have something similar to put on its bus stops with a QR code for people to scan. It's no good having people having to install an app for just one operator.

I've been wondering, is the data on bus locations considered to be part of 'big data' in the same way as that used by Open Train Times, Realtime Trains etc.? Or is it the random nature of the commercial networks that we have with their protectionist practices that wastes the opportunity for national tracker applications? I find HCC's Intalink OK, - better than some counties where a newby traveller first has to know which bus operators actually run services, and then consult a separate website for the one(s) that might affect their journey.
A few years there was the Arriva tracker that sort of worked, but it's infrequent updating meant that a 300/301 bus could be seen slowly making progress along Hatfield Road, and then all of a sudden disappear or even jump back a mile as the app seemed to move its reported point according to the timetable rather than it's position in reality.

 

[A0]

I am not sure an hourly service is quite good enough, which ends too early and doesn't run on a Sunday, but I do think limited-stop buses are a good thing and should work well with local buses doing the intermediate stops. The concept of limited stop trains is perfectly well understood, and when I was growing up in Hertfordshire they used to have many more Green Line buses that were the express coaches you'd opt for if going from one town to another. If you missed one, or it didn't stop at your home stop, you got the slower bus.

It depends on the corridor - there are many corridors between large towns up and down the land where the link is hourly - which is led by demand i.e. increasing the frequency to every 30 mins doesn't lead to sufficient uptake to offset the cost of increasing the frequency.

On Green Line - virtually *all* Green Line services through Hertfordshire were to / from London - going back to LT times the only 'orbital' Green Line route was the 724 - originally between Romford and High Wycombe but over time re-pointed to Heathrow and Harlow. The thing which killed most Green Line routes was improvements to the rail network - notably the electrification of the GN suburban in the mid 1970s and the Midland Mainline suburban in the late 1970s - prior to that those services were slow and with timetables which dated back to steam days - electrification saw quicker journeys and better timetabling. This is where Herts CCs approach is slightly bizarre - because there are already fast, frequent trains between Hertford & Stevenage, Stevenage, Knebworth, Welwyn GC and Hatfield and Luton, Harpenden and St Albans - so an "express" bus isn't going to compete realistically with those. In some ways the Herts CC approach seems to be coming from a point of 'nostalgia' rather than looking at what gaps there are which could be filled. Simply duplicating existing commercial servcices isn't the answer if all that's going to do is cannibalise the demand on those routes and make them less viable - what good is an 'express' bus between Luton, Harpenden and St Albans if it leads to a reduction in or truncation of the existing 321 service for example ? Or the running of this "new" Luton - Harpenden - St Albans service onto Hemel Hempstead kills the demand for the 302 on that corridor ? So the 302 then gets truncated to St Albans and Welwyn GC and Hatfield lose their link to Hemel Hempstead (which is commercially run) in favour of an HCC supported service where Luton (which already has a bus to Hemel) and Harpeneden (which had a bus to Hemel that was withdrawn due to poor loadings) gain it ? It doesn't make sense.

 

[riceuten]

HCC have had so many missed opportunities and half-realised attempts at getting it right. I live near one of the very few bus running information screens in the town to (sporadically) actually show real time information. However, with up to 60% of the services cancelled on some days due to driver or bus shortages, the only way you know a bus is really running is when the screen shows "5 MINS" before arrival - non-running buses are never deleted from the system. The new bus interchange at Stevenage does not have real time information at all, which given the daily level of cancellations means that the times displayed have zero credibility.

PlusBus is such a boon where it exists, but as you have said, there are presently no electronic versions of the tickets and you can't post purchase add a PlusBus ticket. For a long time, you couldn't even buy PlusBus tickets from ticket machines at all, as they were issued as separate tickets, and the bus ticket could open the ticket gates. This anomaly existed long after Cubic had disabled this functionality.

There's an element in Herts of people "driving their cars to bed if they could" - bus users are seen as either pensioners or "povs" and the lowest of the low socially.

This is where Herts CCs approach is slightly bizarre - because there are already fast, frequent trains between Hertford & Stevenage, Stevenage, Knebworth, Welwyn GC and Hatfield and Luton, Harpenden and St Albans - so an "express" bus isn't going to compete realistically with those. In some ways the Herts CC approach seems to be coming from a point of 'nostalgia' rather than looking at what gaps there are which could be filled. Simply duplicating existing commercial services isn't the answer if all that's going to do is cannibalise the demand on those routes and make them less viable

Interestingly enough, when we had the 797 Green Line bus from Stevenage to London, the passengers were mainly a few people who worked in the NW of London (where the coach actually took about the same amount of time as the train + tube combined, and was considerably cheaper) and OAPs who got free travel to/from London after 9am. When Arriva ditched it (and there was a very short lived and half hearted replacement by Uno of the 635 and 712 Hatfield to Victoria service), most of the latter complained (to the wrong council, of course) that they could no longer travel to London and back for nothing. Indeed, the same group were constantly hassling Arriva to allow them to travel before 9am.

 

[jon0844]

It certainly would make more sense to run buses that link up the key railway routes (east coast, west coast, midland and west anglia), than try and compete with them.

Hatfield to St Albans is a lifesaver during disruption and a service over to Herford also useful, perhaps more so than a bus that mimics the railway stops. Likewise places like Stevenage or Hitchin to the MML etc.

 

[riceuten]

It certainly would make more sense to run buses that link up the key railway routes (east coast, west coast, midland and west anglia), than try and compete with them.

Hatfield to St Albans is a lifesaver during disruption and a service over to Herford also useful, perhaps more so than a bus that mimics the railway stops. Likewise places like Stevenage or Hitchin to the MML etc.

There is a ticket called "Line2Line" which allowed you to go from Hatfield to St Albans for just such a purpose but

a) it's not available online
b) there are no leaflets promoting it available at either station (I've checked)
c) you can't buy it at a ticket machine, and some station staff have no idea how to issue it

It's hidden away on this page, only obvious when you click on the 2nd link.

https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/travel-information/plan-your-journey/travel-connections

If you try and book a ticket on the Thameslink website from Stevenage to St Albans and beyond, it ALWAYS routes you via central London

Anyone would think that they had no interest in selling or promoting the ticket

 

[AM9]

There is a ticket called "Line2Line" which allowed you to go from Hatfield to St Albans for just such a purpose but

a) it's not available online
b) there are no leaflets promoting it available at either station (I've checked)
c) you can't buy it at a ticket machine, and some station staff have no idea how to issue it

It's hidden away on this page, only obvious when you click on the 2nd link.

https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/travel-information/plan-your-journey/travel-connections

If you try and book a ticket on the Thameslink website from Stevenage to St Albans and beyond, it ALWAYS routes you via central London

Anyone would think that they had no interest in selling or promoting the ticket

Interesting - not for my personal use as I have ENCTS. How are they priced, is the fare just the rail part(s) with the bus ride thrown in free?

 

[jon0844]

Irrespective of cost, it's also a far quicker way to get to St Albans (or vice versa)*. Assuming people can take the bus and stay on until it gets to the city/town centre itself (rather than alighting at the station stop) it also saves a walk.

* the obvious issue being if the buses are running to time, or running at all.

 

[plebb11]

Hertfordshire bus operators and intalink are becoming very late on timetable uploads and information in general,
Unobus changed their services on 3rd sept and only last week the timetables updated.

 

[A0]

Interestingly enough, when we had the 797 Green Line bus from Stevenage to London, the passengers were mainly a few people who worked in the NW of London (where the coach actually took about the same amount of time as the train + tube combined, and was considerably cheaper) and OAPs who got free travel to/from London after 9am. When Arriva ditched it (and there was a very short lived and half hearted replacement by Uno of the 635 and 712 Hatfield to Victoria service), most of the latter complained (to the wrong council, of course) that they could no longer travel to London and back for nothing. Indeed, the same group were constantly hassling Arriva to allow them to travel before 9am.

The 797 had been in decline for years - you've got it a little wrong - Uno originally took it over and ran it as the 797 for a few months as this post on another thread shows https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/arriva-buses-including-greenline.195210/page-42#post-5973980

I thought the 712 was Arriva's attempt to run a St Albans - London service, but again it didn't last long. And the replacement for the 797 was the 614 which only went as far as Queensbury - where the 797 continued into Central London ?

It certainly would make more sense to run buses that link up the key railway routes (east coast, west coast, midland and west anglia), than try and compete with them.

Hatfield to St Albans is a lifesaver during disruption and a service over to Herford also useful, perhaps more so than a bus that mimics the railway stops. Likewise places like Stevenage or Hitchin to the MML etc.

Setting aside the "disruption" occasions, I'm not sure there has ever been much demand for travel from Stevenage - St Albans. In fact AIUI, if you go back to the early 1980s there wasn't even a direct bus between St Albans and Steveange - that only changed when London Country re-cast some Green Line services in the early 1980s and replaced the Hitchin - London Victoria 732 with the Hitchin - Heathrow (and Reading at one point) 733.

The 733 wasn't overly successful and wasn't registered as commercial by London Country, but Herts County Council made it a contract which was run initally by Armchair of Brentford and then later having been truncated to Watford, by Luton & District.

The current "group" of services which linked Stevenage with St Albans came into being in the late 1980s when London Country recast the 300/303 Hitchin - Potters Bar and 340/341 Welwyn GC - Hatfield - St Albans - Hemel Hempstead routes. The 300/303 were diverted at Hatfield to then head onto St Albans and Hemel replacing the 340/341 - obviously there have been some changes since then, but the basic pattern remains. The Hatfield - Potters Bar section became a Herts County Council contract route. So the fact there is a Stevange - St Albans - Hemel route only came into being out of operational convenience - not really as a result of passenger demand.

 

[riceuten]

You’re probably right about the 797, but the (Uno) 614/644 were different routes that would’ve happened even if the 797 had remained

 

[Deerfold]

I used to live on the route of the 797 North of Stevenage in the mid 2000s.

There was only one a day. I worked at Victoria about a minute's walk from where it terminated and started. But it didn't give me enough time to do a full working day, so in preference I did a 25 minute walk, a train and a tube - I caught it once in the three years I lived there on a day when there were major problems on the train line I head about at lunchtime.