Connecting HS1 to HS2.

[YesToHS2]

Connecting HA1 to HS2.

It is not clear yet if HS1 and HS2 will be connected during the first phase on construction. Costs for the connection have been said to be as much as £700m.

I was wondering if there is anyone who knows enough about the current network to suggest how HS1 and HS2 might be connected more cost effectively.

This map of the current proposals might help.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/h...e/mitigatednorthernroutesection/pdf/03200.pdf

It may seem a bit naive of me to say but I am going to try and open up some channels to key HS2 figures so that serious suggestion can be put to the government. I have had correspond suggesting that a connection with HS2 and HS1 is essential for the project to work. As an advocate of HS2 I believe it is my job to at least try and insure that HS2 not only goes ahead as planned but that HS2 is completed to a standard befitting that of an expensive nation infrastructure project with green credentials/

 

[jopsuk]

Regardless of the technical merits of doing so, there's little point in connecting HS1 and HS2 whilst this country maintains its backwards attitude towards the Schengen treaty.

 

[YesToHS2]

Rather getting into debates over wider European affairs I was hoping this could be more of a technical exercise. A discussion on how HS1 and HS2 could be joined cost effectively.

 

[tbtc]

A discussion on how HS1 and HS2 could be joined cost effectively

If HS2 comes in to Euston then the lines already exist to do what you are talking about. The only issue is the train wouldn't stop in London and would go straight through

(you may want to amend the Title though)

 

[YesToHS2]

I have e-mailed the admin to change the title. I don't seem to be able to change it myself.

I don't see much of a problem with services bypassing central London, If the service could stop at Old Oak Common first then there wouldn't be any problem at all and it might also come in handy for people wishing to travel further south to say Ebbsfleet from North London, it could work as an additional London bypass.

 

[transportphoto]

I have e-mailed the admin to change the title. I don't seem to be able to change it myself.

YesToHS2,

If you click edit (on your post) then 'go Advanced' , you should be able to edit it there or by visiting this page and double clicking at the end of the title for this thread. This principle works for any thread you have created, HTH.

 

[Nym]

Well, the linkway using the NLL does sound about right, on price it was costed at 277mil, using the NLL from Old Oak to the portal at St Pancras.

 

[YesToHS2]

I've put together a potential route. The only way I could see of connecting HS2 to HS1 after Old Oak Common would be to tunnel under the cemetery and connect to the adjacent existing ground level line which connects into HS2 and St Pancras.

Obviously I don't know enough about the existing line to know if it could handle even classic compatible stock or if there is enough capacity for say one train per hour. Based on each northern station being served by 2 or 3 direct European services per day.

Even a uneducated guess could put the cost of this at much less than £700m?

 

[Padav]

Looking at this issue as a complete layperson, I'm finding it hard to comprehend the budget figures being bandied about here.

By my rough reckoning the distance between the approaches to Euston and the HS1 line immediately outside St.Pancras is about 1250m - and the cost is £700million (and that's the cheap option!). I know this is Central London but a tunnel is a tunnel is a tunnel no matter where it is (if it's sufficiently deep of course).

I realise there's an issue with capacity at St.Pancras but if the link is constructed in the form of a triangular junction (as shown in the handy birds-eye graphic provided by @YestoHS2), this would facilitate both direct through running and St.Pancras calling options?

When the original DfT Command Paper was released in March, I read through it with growing incredulity - where was the link from HS2 to HS1 - surely Adonis could not be so stupid as to believe potential customers would be happy to board an exclusively domestic HSR service (which could never benefit from competition induced downward pressure on fare structures) in Birmingham or Manchester, disembark and trundle their suitcases down Euston Road to board a Eurostar at St.Pancras - utter madness!

Virtually the entire environmental case for HS2 revolves around modal shift (short-haul intra European air to HSR) and that transformation in public travelling habits will only occur if a) HS2 is linked into Heathrow (in some effective manner) and b) facilitates direct services from Manchester, Birmingham (and eventually Leeds) to the near continent, Paris and Bruxsel to begin with but if demand proves sufficiently bouyant, other destinations such as Amsterdam, Geneva and Lyon when the market matures.

The proposed high-speed travellator (or whatever label Adonis had for it) linking Euston and St.Pancras was simply farcical - utterly bizarre - here was a man who had the vision and determination to fundamentally change the mindset at the DfT yet he came up with a half-baked stunt like that - I can only presume it was some Whitehall based London-centric advisor who dreamt it up and Adonis was having an off day at the time - just crazy to believe it was a viable option?

 

[YesToHS2]

I stand corrected

"We estimated the cost of the high speed connection to be at least £3.5bn"

"we recommend that this should be dual track railway run at conventional speed between Old Oak Common and HS1 at the Camden Road East Junction. Allowing for risk, this would cost over £1bn."

The £1bn option is basically why I have outlined all be it with a slightly longer tunnel. I agree with Padav about cost. Some of the figure given seem to border on the ridiculous.

The plan I set out looked to be the minimum that could be done to connect HS2 to HS1. I'd completed this map before stumbling upon the HS2 Ltd version for which the cost is massive amount for what is a relatively small low speed tunnel, the rest to the infrastructure already exists including the a large section of track, junction to the HS2 "portal" and St Pancras.

 

[bangor-toad]

Hi,
I think that the issue is getting from the approaches to Euston to the tracks north of St Pancras. There are tracks there that go through Camden Town but I guess that routing a service from HS1 onto the Euston slow lines would cause so much disruption to cross to the fasts that it's a non-starter.

The engineering is complex there as well so any "dive under" tunnel would need to be dug in the middle of a residential area at depth. That's not going to be cheap or easy. I can see why the £700mill+ price comes from...


I have an alternative idea. This may be the greatest answer or the dumbest suggestion, I'll let you decide...

Why not look to reuse as much track/routes as possible? Have the link routed such that a train would come up HS1 to London then come onto the North London line through Kentish Town West, Gospel Oak,etc to Willesden Junction? Just south of Willesden Junction it'd need some engineering and new track allignment but the whole Old Oak Common site will be redeveloped anyway.

OK, there is the disruption to the NLL. It'd loose perhaps 1tph and the link wouldn't be fast. However it would require virtually no heavy engineering in central London and the costs would therefore be very low.

Comments welcomed!
Jason

 

[YesToHS2]

@ all comments and suggestions are welcome that is why I started this thread.

Re coloured the map to make it a bit clearer.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Worked out another 2 proposals

V2, uses a smaller tunnel section just before the HS2 alignment dives into Euston station

V3, takes completely different approach with an extension to the planned old oak common interchange. The separate alignment will allow for a surface connection with the existing track. Only a small section of tunnel would be required to connect HS2 to the other station section.

For each cases building demolition is minimal. With V3 there is no demolition of private housing, but there is 1 small factory in the way.

 

[The Barlow Boy]

Whatever the decision just remember that this is Britain. The time quoted will be at least double (Thameslink 2000 anyone?) and four times the cost and it'll be a fudge job like electrifying Paddington to Bedwyn.

 

[LE Greys]

If HS2 comes in to Euston then the lines already exist to do what you are talking about. The only issue is the train wouldn't stop in London and would go straight through

I don't see much of a problem with services bypassing central London, If the service could stop at Old Oak Common first then there wouldn't be any problem at all and it might also come in handy for people wishing to travel further south to say Ebbsfleet from North London, it could work as an additional London bypass.

Run non-stop from Birmingham to Stratford. Stop there for passport control and to change crews (hopefully won't take as long as my stop at Niagara Falls to get into the US). Then run on to the Continent. The Old Oak-Ebbsfleet link would work better with an extension of the Javelin, presumably reversing at St Pancras.

 

[YesToHS2]

The idea being put forward by HS2 Ltd was Continental services to start at Old Oak, to me this seems pointless, for HS2 to work to it's full potential there should be through trains from Northern stations perhaps with a stop at Oal Oak. Even if there was only 1 or 2 trains from each major northern terminal a day. If service started at Old Oak they may as well build a people mover system from Euston to St Pancras

 

[LE Greys]

V3, takes completely different approach with an extension to the planned old oak common interchange. The separate alignment will allow for a surface connection with the existing track. Only a small section of tunnel would be required to connect HS2 to the other station section.

For each cases building demolition is minimal. With V3 there is no demolition of private housing, but there is 1 small factory in the way.

This was roughly Brunel's planned route of the GWR, to a joint terminus with the London and Birmingham at Euston. It might serve a secondary purpose in getting HEX closer to central London, and to the KX/StP/Eu station complex. That would probably mean moving block signalling on a section of the WCML, or possibly shoe-horning some extra track in there (possibly even sending the d.c. lines underground.

The major problem with both the other versions is that you would have to climb through or cross a section of the NLL - which is up on a viaduct with lots of stuff underneath. It used to be four-track to Camden Road, and could probably be so again, but would require a new viaduct to get it to Kentish Town West. Doable, but expensive.

 

[YesToHS2]

The major problem with both the other versions is that you would have to climb through or cross a section of the NLL - which is up on a viaduct with lots of stuff underneath. It used to be four-track to Camden Road, and could probably be so again, but would require a new viaduct to get it to Kentish Town West. Doable, but expensive.

Thanks. This is why I opened it up to debate, there is only so much you can get from google maps and the detailed maps used by HS2 Ltd.

I think the big question is, could a connection be built for less than HS2 Ltd are stating. And could better use of the connection be made.

 

[LE Greys]

Alternatively, put in a second connection underground and extend some of the Crossrail Paddington-terminators to absorb the Milton Keynes service. That frees up space on the slows that HS2/HEX can use.

 

[j0hn0]

ooorrr....

Why not use the Crossrail tunnels to get to Stratford and then build a chord to HS2 from there.

Surely this is to be the most cost effective.

I just don't understand why Tfl is digging 2 huge tunnels under London from Paddington to Stratford, and not maximising the use for them.

This was mooted in the recent parliamentary debate.

 

[YesToHS2]

ooorrr....

Why not use the Crossrail tunnels to get to Stratford and then build a chord to HS2 from there.

Surely this is to be the most cost effective.

I just don't understand why Tfl is digging 2 huge tunnels under London from Paddington to Stratford, and not maximising the use for them.

This was mooted in the recent parliamentary debate.

My only questions would be could a HS trains cope with the tight curves and will the bores be big enough for a standard UK gauge train?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

How many paths would there be through the Crossrail tunnels once the full Crossrail frequency is running though?

 

[YesToHS2]

[edit]. I don't know about the cross rail service. For arguments sake though I've done a rough outline of HS2 continental service though.

I would say around 2 trains per day from each major City. Glasgow, Manchester, Birmingham, Leeds (Although Leeds would only be connected after the Y shape is connected). So lets allow for 16 trains per day in each direction. About 2 per hour? HS2 Ltd did say only 1 train per day from each city IF HS1 and HS2 were connected but that doesn't leave much room for manoeuvre.

 

[Chris125]

You have to be realistic people - HS2 to HS1 'at any cost' is an irresponsible waste of money considering the relatively low useage predicted. I fear using Crossrail is a non-starter - it will be built, and crucially signalled, for one type of train, 10/12 carriages long, using ATO, at 24tph. Even if a continental train could be fitted through off-peak, which is unlikely, it would add to the journey time and complexity at an unjustifiable cost.

I too was surprised that a link line wasnt more prominent in the initial report, as i suspect many were about it not going via Heathrow - but the arguments the same; by all means make passive provision, but spending vast amounts of money on something which will see relatively little use isnt justifiable. Remember that as well as the link there'll need to be segregated platforms - given the likely site constraints at HS2 stations, can they be justified either? While a travellator (or whatever) between Euston and StP isnt ideal, its little different than transferring between flights at an airport and much better than crossing Paris to change between some LGV services, so it isnt the end of the world.

..that said, i really do hope there are through international services using HS2 - but only when, or if, there's a business case for it that doesnt harm domestic services. Perhaps a final decision should wait on the new DB/E* services; can they grow traffic beyond Paris/Brussels and increase the handful of trains a day currently planned? If so then beyond London might be viable, but thats a big 'if'....

Chris

 

[cle]

Could a shorter tunnel not be bored around Primrose Hill, run under Camden Town and join the HS1 tunnel just after its beginning? It could be two single bores directly joining the W/E sections of tunnel.

I'm sure it'd be expensive, but the NLL couldn't work unless there was 1 or 2 trains per day total - and tunnelling from OOC is a waste, and wouldn't go through.

I think that services to the continent would be focused on Paris. Another Disney train (with a Lille stop) and also picking up at Stratford, and maybe stopping CDG, might cover off a few options.

These regional trains would only work with a West London Parkway station (OOC) and an East London one (Stratford/Ebbs/Ashford) to augment demand. In turn, more St Pancras trains could be sped up.

As well as the new DB/E* trains, I hope the next step is sleepers to the sunnier ends of the continent!

 

[YesToHS2]

The government's position is that a HS1 HS2 connection is vital and HS2 Ltd is looking into proposals. Due to the nature of tunnelling projects it is important that the connection is built from day 1, it would be a hell of a lot more difficult and expensive to cut a new tunnel after HS2 has been built. Just from spending time looking at google maps it is easy to see why it is so technically challenging and how it could get a lot more difficult if HS2 was built before the connection.

 

[WatcherZero]

They could always build the junctions and start the tunnel bore before HS2 opens and carry on digging while the rest is open, they dont have to open at the same time.

 

[YesToHS2]

It looks like a link will be a part of the initial phase after all. We'l just have to wait and see what's in the full report next month.

http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/gene...html?sandbox=e88be8306f684c26ed7f026911837086

 

[route:oxford]

Don't forget, there will be two connections to "High Speed One". One at the London end, the other at Carlisle or Berwick.

 

[WatcherZero]

HS2 Lon to Brum will be the longest underground railway in the world :P seriously with this an intercity line with like a 1/3rd underground.

 

[vtiman]

well hammond has just announced that there WILL be a connection but he hasnt said which one.

I think that any tunnel should be used by as many services as possible not just high speed services - so a sort of super crossrail ! This would ensure greater viability.

I also think that it would be an idea to make st pancras the hs1 and hs2 terminal but run not only through european but also domestic services which could stop at old oak for heathrow and crossrail then stratford for docklands, ebbsfleet etc. the javelins could become through services to Birmingham. Also provide a service3 to the chilterns and milton keynes via junctions onto the east west line then onto the warwick coventry line. these would need electrifying.

you could also run through norwich to wales electrics or at least to newbury and didcot.
and at night with bi-directional signalling through freight could run in one tunnel whilst the other was closed for maintenance.

finally, the tgv picardie line might be built and open by the time we have our hs2. this would save maybe another 15 minutes as the trains would have a higher top speed and the route is somewhat more direct then going via Belgium (well okay - Lille !)
So direct Birmingham - Paris trains would take 2 hrs 45 minutes !