Could CrossCountry (XC) become reservation compulsory, with walk-up passengers denied travel?

[HST43257]

Moderator note: Split from

Cross Country treating customers as sardines

It seems to be the policy of Cross Country to cram as many passengers as possible into too short trains. More often than not one first class and three second class carriages trains are overflowing. Attempting to get from Birmingham New St to Oxford using the 12:03 17 November 2024 I along with...

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The alternative (other than more capacity) is reservation-only travel, which would cut capacity hugely and be even less popular than the current arrangement.

 

[Trainbike46]

The alternative (other than more capacity) is reservation-only travel, which would cut capacity hugely and be even less popular than the current arrangement.

That would be even worse

In previous threads, I've propsed various potential cascades from LNER and GWR, unfortunately they are unlikely to happen

 

[HSTEd]

Beyond causing chaos for huge numbers of short distance passengers that use XC trains, this would seriously impact revenue and further worsen the financial position of the railway.

I can't see how this could possibly be a good idea.

 

[trainophile]

Beyond causing chaos for huge numbers of short distance passengers that use XC trains, this would seriously impact revenue and further worsen the financial position of the railway.

I can't see how this could possibly be a good idea.

Surely their system is capable of allocating reservations stop-by-stop? So half a dozen people could successively book the same seat?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm slightly surprised they haven't been taken in by the "fake compulsory" nonsense as that might manage it a bit. However they provide too many local connections for that to really work. Avanti do the fake compulsory thing and do provide the Crewe-Preston local service, but because so many people alight in the North West "sold out" would be extremely unusual for journeys between those stations.

I believe Lumo is reservation only, and it seems to work. Would anyone wittingly book a ticket for a journey of any length over half an hour, in the certain knowledge that they would have to stand? I don't see the problem with reservation only, at least you know you're getting a seat.

Lumo is fake-compulsory like Avanti and LNER. You are not penalised for boarding without a reservation, and there are a small number of unreserved seats. I'm not sure they even particularly wanted to do it, but as LNER did if they (and Grand Central) hadn't they'd have ended up leaving people behind on every train as everyone would have picked them as not "sold out".

 

[HSTEd]

Surely their system is capable of allocating reservations stop-by-stop? So half a dozen people could successively book the same seat?

Yes, but that would require people to book journeys in advance, which is not attractive to customers on such short connections.

 

[trainophile]

Yes, but that would require people to book journeys in advance, which is not attractive to customers on such short connections.

They already do 10 minute reservations (don't they?) so I still can't see the problem. Unless people genuinely don't mind standing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They already do 10 minute reservations (don't they?) so I still can't see the problem.

Fairly sure they binned that. But you can't get a reservation if it's full. The other operator of 5 car trains that aren't long enough for purpose (TPE Scottish services) and how often those show as "sold out" should explain all you need to know.

Unless people genuinely don't mind standing.

Most people prefer to stand than to be told the next train with availability is tomorrow, or around Christmas next week.

 

[nw1]

They already do 10 minute reservations (don't they?) so I still can't see the problem.

It would be very annoying if you were just using the train for somewhere like Southampton to Bournemouth, for example. Demanding reservations for that kind of short-distance journey, often done by commuters, is just plain crazy.

 

[JonathanH]

It would be very annoying if you were just using the train for somewhere like Southampton to Bournemouth, for example. Demanding reservations for that kind of short-distance journey, often done by commuters, is just plain crazy.

Passengers over that part of the route would use one of the three SWR journeys that run each hour. In practice, Southampton to Bournemouth isn't part of CrossCountry's network where they routinely have overcrowding issues.

 

[nw1]

Passengers over that part of the route would use one of the three SWR journeys that run each hour. In practice, Southampton to Bournemouth isn't part of CrossCountry's network where they routinely have overcrowding issues.

True though it was just an example plucked out of the air. Let's say Oxford to Banbury instead, the one section of the southeastern branch where there is usually no reasonable alternative.

 

[Bletchleyite]

True though it was just an example plucked out of the air. Let's say Oxford to Banbury instead, the one section of the southeastern branch where there is usually no reasonable alternative.

They are also the only TOC to serve Burton-on-Trent.

 

[A S Leib]

Would giving the option to book advance tickets for shorter journeys (e.g. Burton to Sheffield) without making a seat reservation help, freeing up seats for passengers taking longer journeys? I would keep free seat reservations available to all.

I wonder if scrapping them for very short journeys like Stockport to Manchester Piccadilly or Wolverhampton to Birmingham New Street would help as a last resort, but as I'd keep reservations free people would just make reservations for longer journeys.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would giving the option to book advance tickets for shorter journeys (e.g. Burton to Sheffield) without making a seat reservation help, freeing up seats for passengers taking longer journeys? I would keep free seat reservations available to all.

I wonder if scrapping them for very short journeys like Stockport to Manchester Piccadilly or Wolverhampton to Birmingham New Street would help as a last resort, but as I'd keep reservations free people would just make reservations for longer journeys.

This can actually be done. Avanti for instance I believe now only offer counted places for short trips like Brum to Cov, at least at certain times of day, leaving the actual reservations to longer distance passengers.

But the fundamental problem with making reservation compulsory is that it means people can't travel if it's full, which isn't OK for a train fulfilling a local service need.

 

[HSTEd]

Unless people genuinely don't mind standing.

They would rather stand on a train that be left standing on a platform with no idea of when they will get to their destination.

 

[Kite159]

Completely unworkable and will force passengers to using cars if they want to travel. Especially on shorter distance journeys where XC provide the only service or the majority of services, such as Oxford to Banbury or Stoke to Stafford.

 

[A S Leib]

Unless people genuinely don't mind standing.

As a bare minimum I think any mandatory reservation routes should have regular alternatives without mandatory reservations, but for some CrossCountry routes there's not really a practical alternative (e.g. Birmingham – Leeds, which would probably mean going via Nottingham if that route remained flexible, or Leeds – Edinburgh, with TPE being the alternative and no stranger to capacity issues itself).

Do any TOCs offer the ability to easily cancel seat reservations if unneeded, apart from contacting them on social media?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do any TOCs offer the ability to easily cancel seat reservations if unneeded, apart from contacting them on social media?

LNER do, but I don't think any others do. It's a shame LNER thoroughly discredited themselves with their fare policy, as stuff like that is really done quite well.

 

[duffield]

Passengers over that part of the route would use one of the three SWR journeys that run each hour. In practice, Southampton to Bournemouth isn't part of CrossCountry's network where they routinely have overcrowding issues.

A better example is Derby, Burton and Tamworth to Birmingham (40 minutes or less journeys). This gets very overcrowded, with Tamworth to Birmingham particularly filling up with very local traffic. XC are the only operator on this line. Both the Nottingham to Birmingham and the northeast to southwest services get crammed at times so having compulsory reservations on either or both of these routes would effectively prevent many people from travelling at all at peak times; the standing capacity is absolutely essential with the current rolling stock provision.

 

[Falcon1200]

They already do 10 minute reservations (don't they?) so I still can't see the problem

The problem is trying to turf someone out of 'your' seat because it wasn't reserved when they sat in it! For the reasons stated above, compulsory reservation is a terrible idea because one of rail's advantages is flexibility, ie being able to make or change plans at the last minute and board a train, even if you have to stand - And people do choose to do just that, rather than wait for another, hopefully not also overcrowded, train, or simply not travel at all. As discussed, elsewhere and at length, XC simply needs, desperately, more capacity.

 

[Indigo Soup]

The problem is trying to turf someone out of 'your' seat because it wasn't reserved when they sat in it!

In my view, making reservations after a train has left its point of origin shouldn't be permitted unless there's a system in place to guarantee that a reservation won't be issued for an occupied seat.

Compulsory reservations also require a way of determining who gets to travel. It's either on the basis of 'first come first served', or on the basis of 'deepest pockets first'. Neither is particularly fair.

As discussed, elsewhere and at length, XC simply needs, desperately, more capacity.

Indeed. I've never seen any justification for why an operator that's regularly running full-and-standing long distance trains shouldn't operate longer trains. Especially when they've historically run 9-car (or longer - remember an HST power car takes up length!) on virtually all routes, instead of 4-car and 5-car trains, so the infrastructure can cope with it.

 

[Djgr]

We don't even know whether XC will exist in a meaningful way in a couple of years time!

 

[stevieinselby]

Surely their system is capable of allocating reservations stop-by-stop? So half a dozen people could successively book the same seat?

Sure, the system can cope with that fine. The problem comes when you introduce actual passengers into the mix.

XC has a lot more commuters who travel on season tickets than other IC operators typically do, and if you're travelling 4 or 5 days a week from Tamworth into Birmingham, let's say, it's going to be a pain in the wossnames to have to make a reservation each and every day you're travelling to work. That's especially going to be the case for passengers travelling on routes shared by multiple operators where they might not even be catching an XC train every day. And people making local journeys are less likely to be planning ahead than people making long-distance journeys (even if not a regular commute) and so having to book advance tickets is a nuisance and will deter people from travelling.

Not to mention the impact on long-distance passengers. If I want to book a ticket from Leeds to Plymouth then the system will only sell me a ticket if there is one seat that is available for that whole journey. There could be a train that, at every point, has dozens of seats free, but if each of those seats has any booking at all within that overall journey, even if only for one stop, then I won't be able to book a ticket for my journey. So the more people you have making reservations for short-distance journeys, the harder it will make it for the genuine long-distance passengers that such a change would be purported to be for.

 

[The exile]

Passengers over that part of the route would use one of the three SWR journeys that run each hour. In practice, Southampton to Bournemouth isn't part of CrossCountry's network where they routinely have overcrowding issues.

There are other short journeys where there aren’t that many alternatives, though.

 

[Starmill]

There are other short journeys where there aren’t that many alternatives, though.

There are absolutely loads. Stamford - Peterborough, Burton-on-Trent - Derby, Tamworth - Birmingham New Street, Oxford - Banbury, Hinckley - Leicester, Cheltenham Spa - Birmingham New Street, Willington - Nottingham, the list is actually very long.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

It would be very annoying if you were just using the train for somewhere like Southampton to Bournemouth, for example. Demanding reservations for that kind of short-distance journey, often done by commuters, is just plain crazy.

Supposing the person had a disability? People book seats for short trips sometimes.

 

[class 9]

We don't even know whether XC will exist in a meaningful way in a couple of years time!

There's no reason it shouldn't, looking at reservation lists, there's plenty of people that travel long distances on the services, it just needs capacity which is in the hands of the government.

 

[TCDD]

The problem is that even if Crosscountry implemented compulsory reservations, how would they communicate this? Bearing in mind that other operators also mark trains as 'reservations required', such with as Avanti, LNER and some TPE services, even when it is not required. Which of these operators does one believe?

Currently I'd safely assume that reservations are not required for a seat on any UK rail service, and that the note 'reservation required' in the journey planner/timetable is always incorrect.

 

[Falcon1200]

The problem is that even if Crosscountry implemented compulsory reservations, how would they communicate this?

And also, how would it be implemented? How could, for example, a passenger at Wolverhampton going to New Street or Oxford going to Reading, be prevented from boarding an XC service?

 

[ivanhoe]

Cross Country needs more capacity, not restricted travel.