Could Drax services be rerouted via Ormskirk to avoid Manchester ?

[Halifaxlad]

Ive been reading an old article about SELRAP and Skipton to Colne, which has got me thinking about what route Drax trains would take if it indeed reopened, which lead to me on to thinking what route they could take to reach Blackburn.

Hypothetically speaking here: if a chord was created so that trains from Liverpool could head straight through Lostock Hall what other issues do people see if Drax trains ran via Ormskirk ?

Im not familar with this line at all!

 

[D6130]

When Colne-Skipton reopens - if it ever does, which I doubt will happen - Drax power station will have long since closed down.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

what other issues do people see if Drax trains ran via Ormskirk ?

That they'd crash through the buffer stops at Ormskirk station that currently separate the electrified Merseyrail track from the non-electrified track used by Northern?

 

[AlastairFraser]

Ive been reading an old article about SELRAP and Skipton to Colne, which has got me thinking about what route Drax trains would take if it indeed reopened, which lead to me on to thinking what route they could take to reach Blackburn.

Hypothetically speaking here: if a chord was created so that trains from Liverpool could head straight through Lostock Hall what other issues do people see if Drax trains ran via Ormskirk ?

Im not familar with this line at all!

There's a high frequency on the line from Ormskirk into Liverpool, and you'd need to redouble or at least extend passing loops + upgrade the signalling from Ormskirk towards Preston (it's currently only single and One Train Working/One Token Block from Ormskirk onwards). Not really viable without major upgrades.
Better to run the trains via St Helens Central and Wigan to the Lostock Hall chord off the WCML, onto the East Lancs, then the Aire Valley, Leeds, Wakefield and Knottingley.

I agree with the others that Drax won't be around for much longer, but any future Liverpool to Yorks/North East freights could well use Skipton to Colne to avoid this stupid roundabout tour of Cheshire and GM that the Drax services seem to do.

 

[SuspectUsual]

I agree with the others that Drax won't be around for much longer, but any future Liverpool to Yorks/North East freights could well use Skipton to Colne to avoid this stupid roundabout tour of Cheshire and GM that the Drax services seem to do.

Is it not the case that this is eastbound (loaded) only to avoid the climb from Victoria to Miles Platting?

 

[Halifaxlad]

When Colne-Skipton reopens - if it ever does, which I doubt will happen - Drax power station will have long since closed down.

This thread has NOTHING to do with Skipton - Colne!

 

[D6130]

This thread has NOTHING to do with Skipton - Colne!

OK. You have confused us all by referring to Skipton-Colne and SELRAP in the first paragraph of your post. If you're contemplating routing the Drax trains via Copy Pit, the gradients leading to that summit from both Gannow Junction and Stansfield Hall Junction are nearly as steep as Miles Platting. Therefore that isn't going to happen.

 

[The Planner]

Is it not the case that this is eastbound (loaded) only to avoid the climb from Victoria to Miles Platting?

Yes.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Is it not the case that this is eastbound (loaded) only to avoid the climb from Victoria to Miles Platting?

Even if it's only eastbound, it's stupid and limits the volume of intermodal trains that can cross the Pennines west-east for a reasonable cost.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Aug 2024 ==

OK. You have confused us all by referring to Skipton-Colne and SELRAP in the first paragraph of your post. If you're contemplating routing the Drax trains via Copy Pit, the gradients leading to that summit from both Gannow Junction and Stansfield Hall Junction are nearly as steep as Miles Platting. Therefore that isn't going to happen.

Apropos of the usual Rail UK pointless pros and cons discussion, Skipton to Colne reopening with electrification would be a decent option for a 2nd electrified passenger and freight route over the Pennines.

Farington Curve Jcn to the jcn with the Airedale line west of Skipton is roughly 38.5 miles to electrify, including completion of the spur at the Lostock Hall end.
Farington Curve Jcn to Whitehall Jcn is roughly 60 miles to electrify, with many difficult tunnels to electrify.

 

[LMS 4F]

This proposal would mean more freight having to cross the western end of Leeds station to access the route to Drax through Knottingley. Should freight stall whilst doing this manoeuvre the result would be hoffific.
it could of course turn left and go through the station and out past Neville Hill on an already very busy two track railway.
Neither way seems to make sense compared to the present route West Yorkshire.

 

[WAO]

I'm curious to know how Liverpool freight could reasonably gain direct access to the residual L&Y single lines, whether to Preston or Wigan, now that the North Mersey branch is 2/3 obliterated. I agree that it's a pity and that the downgrading of the L&Y by Beeching has led to a cycle of decline all along its route into Yorkshire but we are where we are.

WAO

 

[AlastairFraser]

This proposal would mean more freight having to cross the western end of Leeds station to access the route to Drax through Knottingley. Should freight stall whilst doing this manoeuvre the result would be horrific.
it could of course turn left and go through the station and out past Neville Hill on an already very busy two track railway.
Neither way seems to make sense compared to the present route West Yorkshire.

Given the times of day the services travel at, I'm not sure the risk of any resulting chaos is that high.
The benefit of the new route is clear - significantly reduced mileage, and removal of services on a lot of very congested railway routes (while only introducing more pressure on small sections of currently congested railways).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Aug 2024 ==

I'm curious to know how Liverpool freight could reasonably gain direct access to the residual L&Y single lines, whether to Preston or Wigan, now that the North Mersey branch is 2/3 obliterated. I agree that it's a pity and that the downgrading of the L&Y by Beeching has led to a cycle of decline all along its route into Yorkshire but we are where we are.

WAO

The existing route heads through Huyton, could trains not head in the Wigan direction from there, instead of the Chat Moss?

 

[LMS 4F]

Given the times of day the services travel at, I'm not sure the risk of any resulting chaos is that high.
The benefit of the new route is clear - significantly reduced mileage, and removal of services on a lot of very congested railway routes (while only introducing more pressure on small sections of currently congested railways).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Aug 2024 ==


The existing route heads through Huyton, could trains not head in the Wigan direction from there, instead of the Chat Moss?

As we are in fantasy mode perhaps a flyover or duck under tunnel at the
end of Leeds.

 

[AlastairFraser]

As we are in fantasy mode perhaps a flyover or duck under tunnel at the
end of Leeds.

For a train passing through Leeds mostly at 1am-3am? Seems a bit like overkill, but could be considered at a later date if needed.

 

[LMS 4F]

For a train passing through Leeds mostly at 1am-3am? Seems a bit like overkill, but could be considered at a later date if needed.

Not al

For a train passing through Leeds mostly at 1am-3am? Seems a bit like overkill, but could be considered at a later date if needed.

Looking at RTT for today there were at least two trains each way at times when crossing the Leeds throat would be a pontential conflict. As was said before I also think Drax will be gone long before this is even thought of.

 

[Bald Rick]

For a train passing through Leeds mostly at 1am-3am? Seems a bit like overkill, but could be considered at a later date if needed.

Why do you think such freights would only travel at that time?

There’s not enough space at the west end of Leeds for all the passenger services that are proposed to run, let alone more freight!

 

[D6130]

Not al

Looking at RTT for today there were at least two trains each way at times when crossing the Leeds throat would be a pontential conflict. As was said before I also think Drax will be gone long before this is even thought of.

Yes....the loaded and empty biomass trains pass through Hebden Bridge at regular intervals throughout the day and night.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Not al

Looking at RTT for today there were at least two trains each way at times when crossing the Leeds throat would be a pontential conflict. As was said before I also think Drax will be gone long before this is even thought of.

2 trains out of many, if that's deemed a sizeable issue, it can be solved. But the priority should be getting trains off the roundabout route eastbound, and off the congested routes
through Victoria station westbound.

Why do you think such freights would only travel at that time?

There’s not enough space at the west end of Leeds for all the passenger services that are proposed to run, let alone more freight!

1) Because, as other forum members have mentioned, Drax services are likely to end, and a lot of intermodal services run at night because that is when businesses tend to prefer bulk deliveries.
2) What extra passenger services are proposed to run?

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

1) Because, as other forum members have mentioned, Drax services are likely to end, and a lot of intermodal services run at night because that is when businesses tend to prefer bulk deliveries.

And how many trans-Pennine intermodal services are there? Current freight market conditions mean that intermodal rail hauls need to be at least 150 miles long to be viable. The relative narrowness of the north of the country means there is very little possibility of such trains being needed on trans-Pennine routes. As such the idea presented by the OP is a complete non-starter.

 

[AlastairFraser]

And how many trans-Pennine intermodal services are there? Current freight market conditions mean that intermodal rail hauls need to be at least 150 miles long to be viable. The relative narrowness of the north of the country means there is very little possibility of such trains being needed on trans-Pennine routes. As such the idea presented by the OP is a complete non-starter.

I think it's a market that will develop over the next ten to 15 years, as the M62 gets more and more congested. Liverpool port is growing, and trade with North America is expected to increase.

 

[Bald Rick]

2 trains out of many, if that's deemed a sizeable issue, it can be solved. But the priority should be getting trains off the roundabout route eastbound, and off the congested routes
through Victoria station westbound.

1) Because, as other forum members have mentioned, Drax services are likely to end, and a lot of intermodal services run at night because that is when businesses tend to prefer bulk deliveries.
2) What extra passenger services are proposed to run?

Many IM services do run at night, but thats not because it is when business prefer bulk deliveries. By its very nature, IM is not ‘bulk’. They run at night to make best use of the assets. And almost all the trains that run at night also run in the day.

Extra passenger services through Leeds include an extra hourly Sheffield Leeds, extensions of some LNER Leeds terminators to Bradford, plus all the extras that come with the Transpennine Upgrade. Getting more freight across Leeds west end in the service day is not on the list of things to provide for, and would be very very expensive to do so. Those promoting Skipton Colne for freight will need to explain how that will be resolved.

 

[zwk500]

thinking about what route Drax trains .. could take to reach Blackburn.

To return to the main thrust of the thread. To get to Ormskirk from Liverpool Docks as it stands would require an additional chord or multiple reversals. As mentioned, Ormskirk would need reconnecting and the lines either side some level of double tracking. You'd also need the crrve to Lostock Hall put back in.
However existing infrastructure could be used to run via St Helens and Wigan NW to use the Farington Jn curve to the East Lancs line, then you'd run via Hebden bridge to Todmorden to pick up the original route (not sure what the gradients/load limits are like on Blackburn-Todmorden so may still need some work or double heading).

EDIT: have just checked, the max weight for a Class 66 between Blackburn and Burnley is tiny (lower than Miles Platting bank), so for any routing via Blackburn you'd need either more power, more locos, or additional paths.

The additional mileage of routing via Skipton, and then the need to fit in with the existing 4tph service + freight and fight your way across Leeds is going to make that route unattractive even in a hypothetical world where it did get put back in.

 

[The Planner]

2 trains out of many, if that's deemed a sizeable issue, it can be solved. But the priority should be getting trains off the roundabout route eastbound, and off the congested routes
through Victoria station westbound.

1) Because, as other forum members have mentioned, Drax services are likely to end, and a lot of intermodal services run at night because that is when businesses tend to prefer bulk deliveries.
2) What extra passenger services are proposed to run?

They run at night as there is no capacity in the day.

 

[D6130]

They run at night as there is no capacity in the day.

There are at least three biomass trains per day in each direction passing through Hebden Bridge during the daytime....and sometimes four.

 

[The Planner]

There are at least three biomass trains per day in each direction passing through Hebden Bridge during the daytime....and sometimes four.

I was on about Intermodal, which you cannot run transpennine until TRU is done anyway as there is no gauge clearance.

 

[D6130]

I was on about Intermodal, which you cannot run transpennine until TRU is done anyway as there is no gauge clearance.

Ah, sorry.....I didn't pick that up.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I think it's a market that will develop over the next ten to 15 years, as the M62 gets more and more congested. Liverpool port is growing, and trade with North America is expected to increase.

The market may well grow but that doesn't in itself mean that the required hauls will become viable for rail. Geography really does not favour rail for such traffic to/from northern ports.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Many IM services do run at night, but thats not because it is when business prefer bulk deliveries. By its very nature, IM is not ‘bulk’. They run at night to make best use of the assets. And almost all the trains that run at night also run in the day.

Extra passenger services through Leeds include an extra hourly Sheffield Leeds, extensions of some LNER Leeds terminators to Bradford, plus all the extras that come with the Transpennine Upgrade. Getting more freight across Leeds west end in the service day is not on the list of things to provide for, and would be very very expensive to do so. Those promoting Skipton Colne for freight will need to explain how that will be resolved.

1.) Maybe this compromise of running primarily at night will continue and actually shift services over from in the day.
2.) If the new freight is to primarily run at night, are these extra passenger services an issue? I thought you were going to say increased services were going to be run out of Leeds post 11-pm!

The additional mileage of routing via Skipton, and then the need to fit in with the existing 4tph service + freight and fight your way across Leeds is going to make that route unattractive even in a hypothetical world where it did get put back in.

The increased mileage? It's not horrifically high. It's approx 63.5 miles from Farington Curve Jcn to Whitehall Jcn via Skipton, and with electrification, electric or bi mode traction would be able to operate the whole way from Liverpool and close that gap a lot.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Aug 2024 ==

They run at night as there is no capacity in the day.

That implies there is capacity for more at night, though?

The market may well grow but that doesn't in itself mean that the required hauls will become viable for rail. Geography really does not favour rail for such traffic to/from northern ports.

Obviously road will remain dominant, but gradual modal shift is better than none.

 

[zwk500]

The increased mileage? It's not horrifically high. It's approx 63.5 miles from Farington Curve Jcn to Whitehall Jcn via Skipton, and with electrification, electric or bi mode traction would be able to operate the whole way from Liverpool and close that gap a lot.

Still more though isn't it, especially compared to the current route let alone via Burnley Manchester road. Also doesn't deal with the problem of trailing loads, which I mentioned are between Blackburn and Rose Grove. A Class 66 is limited to c.1500 tonnes on that section, somewhat short of the 2400 tonnes they're currently timed for.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Still more though isn't it, especially compared to the current route let alone via Burnley Manchester road. Also doesn't deal with the problem of trailing loads, which I mentioned are between Blackburn and Rose Grove. A Class 66 is limited to c.1500 tonnes on that section, somewhat short of the 2400 tonnes they're currently timed for.

I wonder why loads are so low? Gradients aren't that steep, so I suspect it is a paperwork issue.