Could the Chat Moss line be upgraded?

[Purple Orange]

Hi everyone. I’m wondering, could the Chat Moss line be upgraded to 125 mph running and what might the engineering obstacles be that would need to be overcome? If possible, what journey times could we see between Manchester & Liverpool?

 

[Ianno87]

Hi everyone. I’m wondering, could the Chat Moss line be upgraded to 125 mph running and what might the engineering obstacles be that would need to be overcome? If possible, what journey times could we see between Manchester & Liverpool?

I suspect the ground conditions of Stephenson's original engineering will be the limiting factor.

 

[The Planner]

You would have to get rid of all the level crossings, and we still haven't sorted Astley from the original upgrade! Some of the signal spacing at the Rainhill end is quite short.

 

[Purple Orange]

Would I be right in thinking that although level crossings and signalling issues could be resolved, the quality of the ground and the original engineering would be a factor that could not be overcome without ripping up the track and rebuilding?

 

[Dr Hoo]

Given the mix of 'fast' and stopping passenger services and long/slow/heavy freight like the Drax biomass, numerous flat junctions and congested approaches to both Manchester and Liverpool I am far from certain that any sustained 125mph running would be possible in timetable terms.

 

[Senex]

Would I be right in thinking that although level crossings and signalling issues could be resolved, the quality of the ground and the original engineering would be a factor that could not be overcome without ripping up the track and rebuilding?

That's what I was rather wondering. I seem to remember reading that for electrification the piles for the masts were taken down to rock. Didn't HS1 across Rainham Marsh involve some sort of supporting structure going down to rock too? (There's an article about it in one of the ICE journals, but it's behind a paywall for non-members.) And DB have done quite a lot of work in recent years on areas on pretty well all the main lines out of Berlin crossing similar sorts of land. All has involved pretty large-scale activity. How long a total closure of the section over Chat Moss would be aceptable, and how would the cost-per-second-saved look? (Much though I personally would love to see this line cleared of local traffic and made the 125-mph high-speed line between Liverpool and Manchester, I can't see it happening in my lifetime or well beyond.)

 

[Bald Rick]

I’d be astonished if it hasn’t been looked at for Northern Powerhouse Rail. Hence proposals for a new line.

The Ranham (Essex) example is relevant. HS1 is built on, effectively, a ground level viaduct in that section. Some of the piles are over 50m deep. Were you do do this on the existing route through Ranhill you would effectively have to remove the existing railway and build a new one on line. Far easier (and therefore cheaper) just to do the latter half of that process.

 

[Purple Orange]

I guess it would mean that the cost of ripping up the track, going several years with just the CLC to rely upon, rebuilding the line with stronger foundations would be prohibitively more expensive than building a line to Liverpool via Warrington and utilising the HS2 tunnel.

 

[Bald Rick]

I guess it would mean that the cost of ripping up the track, going several years with just the CLC to rely upon, rebuilding the line with stronger foundations would be prohibitively more expensive than building a line to Liverpool via Warrington and utilising the HS2 tunnel.

It wouldn’t just be ripping up the track, but everything underneath it as well (bridges, embankments, etc).

 

[Philip]

No point increasing the speed on this line, expresses would just catch up with the numerous stopping/semi-stopping services which use the route. The stock which goes half way and then heads onto the WCML can only do 100mph.

Increasing the speed limit between Manchester-Bolton-Euxton to 110mph might be better to suit the 397s, or upgrade the up line from 95 to 100.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

No point increasing the speed on this line, expresses would just catch up with the numerous stopping/semi-stopping services which use the route. The stock which goes half way and then heads onto the WCML can only do 100mph.

Increasing the speed limit between Manchester-Bolton-Euxton to 110mph might be better to suit the 397s, or upgrade the up line from 95 to 100.

And how many seconds does 5mph save you ? How much to upgrade the signalling to allow 100mph ?

 

[Bald Rick]

And how many seconds does 5mph save you ?

There’s three sections of 95mph on the up line, one is about 2 miles long, the others a little over a mile each.

Upgrading all 3 to 100mph, allowing for acceleration and deceleration, would save, perhaps, 3 seconds.

You did ask

 

[Philip Phlopp]

There’s three sections of 95mph on the up line, one is about 2 miles long, the others a little over a mile each.

Upgrading all 3 to 100mph, allowing for acceleration and deceleration, would save, perhaps, 3 seconds.

You did ask

I knew you would know.

Could you do a very rough cost estimate, so we can do the £x million per second saved sums.

 

[Bald Rick]

I knew you would know.

Could you do a very rough cost estimate, so we can do the £x million per second saved sums.

I’ve run out of fingers to count on, sorry!

 

[Bevan Price]

I have stood near Astley Level Crossing taking photographs, and almost every time a heavy train went past, I could feel the external road "bounce" slightly - and that is with the current 60 mph limit. I hate to think what would happen at 125 mph.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I’ve run out of fingers to count on, sorry!

Borrow mine, I've 12 you can have. Don't know where these extra couple have come from, mind you. Must ask round the office.