Could the Transpennine Express get High Speed Class 43/91?

[Polo Mint]

Hello,

Is it possible for the Trans Pennine Express to have High Speed trains in the future?

I currently feel the current fleet of rolling stock is highly unsuited to the network they serve for a few reasons. They are small (3 or 4 carriages long) and every time I have used the services they have been very full to the extent that it caused delays. Furthermore the trains (class 185/350/170/156) are all used for commuter routes in other parts of the country and may be considered too slow and uncompetitive for intercity routes from Manchester to the North East and Scotland. Also the Chat Moss Line has now been electrified and the Manchester to York line electrification project has been resumed, so surely electric trains are required otherwise it would have been a waste of investment?

Meanwhile the class 43, class 91 and DVT locomotives will be withdrawn from the First Great Western and Virgin East Coast fleet alongside Mark 3 and 4 coaches. Eventually the Midland Mainline will be electrified and therefore the class 43's and class 222's may be withdrawn.

Is there any chance these High Speed Class 43/91/222 will find themselves in the First Trans Pennine Express fleet? Whilst some of these trains are getting old, they are bigger, faster and more comfortable than the current TPE fleet and gives the company opportunities to add capacity. They could be refurbished and painted and added to the fleet within a couple of years.

The existing TPE fleet could transfer to Northern Rail as part of its fleet modernisation programme or also find a place in Wales to help solve the current DMU shortage.

The downside of this idea is that the media will make it appear as though old Southern cast offs are replacing the current modern fleet.

I am sure this has probably been suggested many times, but it seems like a sensible idea to use perfectly good trains on routes that should be operated with high speed high capacity trains.

 

[fowler9]

Not without a new line being built alas. I'm sure others with more railway knowledge than me can articulate this better but there are a number of reasons. Much of the Trans Pennine route is actually very heavily used by commuters, it is also pretty much full with trains. You should see the number of people that get on and off at South Parkway alone, and double 185 won't even fit there as well as at some other stations. The Manchester Airport to Scotland route shouldn't be Trans Pennine in my mind, however, even if it wasn't I think there are limitations on what would fit in Manchester Airport station.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Not without a new line being built alas. I'm sure others with more railway knowledge than me can articulate this better but there are a number of reasons. Much of the Trans Pennine route is actually very heavily used by commuters, it is also pretty much full with trains. You should see the number of people that get on and off at South Parkway alone, and double 185 won't even fit there as well as at some other stations. The Manchester Airport to Scotland route shouldn't be Trans Pennine in my mind, however, even if it wasn't I think there are limitations on what would fit in Manchester Airport station.

Platform extensions, more platforms and additional track are all happening in addition to the electrification, but until precise platform lengths are worked out, it's impossible to suggest what stock will be used.

It's very unlikely it will feature powercars, locomotives and driving van trailers, there's not the platform lengths available to waste on them, so that immediately rules out IC125 and IC225 trainsets. Class 222 trains are unlikely on the core electrified routes, they could find use elsewhere, but are more likely to be needed by XC, who have HST sets coming out of service and increasing demand to deal with.

Bidders for the franchise are reportedly working on plans that involve obtaining new Hitachi Class 800 trainsets or derivatives of, but be aware they're not guaranteed to retain the intercity door and seating layout, in light of the loading times the Class 158 units encountered when working on the TransPennine route.

 

[fowler9]

Just going off the stations I know the best, lengthening platforms at Liverpool South Parkway and Warrington Central would be problematic. There is of course the Chat Moss route but I'm not sure if dropping the stops at Parkway and Warrington are an option, they do get a lot of passengers.

Another problem is that the Cheshire Lines route is pretty much full, during the peaks the EMT and FTPE services are pretty much nailed on to be late stuck behind late running stoppers. Shifting to Chat Moss would produce the same problem there and that is also pretty full already.

Faster trains would again just be catching up with the stopping services more quickly.

 

[Ianigsy]

I'm not sure that HSTs would do much about the station dwell times either- the 185s were actually designed with plenty of standing space, but a full Mark 3 is going to take longer to empty in the peak (and that's without the issue of manual doors). Back when Trans-Pennine was considered part of the InterCity network (early 1980s), there was always a certain amount of suggestion that HSTs could work the route and the odd working came across for publicity purposes, but in the end it dropped into the Regional portfolio while InterCity never had enough HSTs for the Cross Country network it retained.

 

[fowler9]

It is a funny old route. Whilst deep down I feel maybe it should be an "Intercity" service since that is what it does, it connects a number of large cities that are very close together and certainly on the Liverpool to Manchester stretch it is pretty heavily populated almost all the way. t has to be remembered that even Warrington is the biggest town in Cheshire with a larger population than Chester, despite not being a city. Plenty of people commute from Liverpool to Manchester and vice versa. When I briefly worked in Warrington I knew one lad who commuted there from Leeds. These people are not going to get the stopping service every day instead to free up capacity.

 

[thealexweb]

Aren't the concerns about Warrington Central and South Parkways platforms and commuters irrelevant as they will not be served by Transpennine beyond the December 2017 timetable change. It was decided Transpennine would run half hourly via the Chat Moss in the ITT if I recall.

Also, Scotrail's HSTs will have self closing doors when they enter service. No reason why Transpennine could not have the same modifications made.

 

[fowler9]

Aren't the concerns about Warrington Central and South Parkways platforms and commuters irrelevant as they will not be served by Transpennine beyond the December 2017 timetable change. It was decided Transpennine would run half hourly via the Chat Moss in the ITT if I recall.

Also, Scotrail's HSTs will have self closing doors when they enter service. No reason why Transpennine could not have the same modifications made.

Ah fair enough mate. Thought I had heard something along those lines. My concerns about running anything faster over the core are the same. However if it is electrified the stopping services will get quicker. I still can't see the stock becoming anything more like traditional Intercity stock though. I'll be chuffed if it does.

 

[Starmill]

Indeed, management of Birchwood and Warrington Central and all TransPennine trains currently serving them will be a part of the new Northern Rail franchise. It's thought that they will operate a through service to Manchester Airport.

 

[55z]

One thing you have forgotten is that by 2020 all trains should be DDA compliant and all trains should be fitted with retention toilet (DFt instruction for all new franchised TOC's) hST's will also need to have automatic doors. All this is expensive but cheaper than new trains. In addition HST's will need significant work, refurbishment and possibly new engines to extend their life. Abeilio Scotrail are obviously going to spend a lot of money on the ex GWR HST's when they get them.

 

[NotATrainspott]

One thing you have forgotten is that by 2020 all trains should be DDA compliant and all trains should be fitted with retention toilet (DFt instruction for all new franchised TOC's) hST's will also need to have automatic doors. All this is expensive but cheaper than new trains. In addition HST's will need significant work, refurbishment and possibly new engines to extend their life. Abeilio Scotrail are obviously going to spend a lot of money on the ex GWR HST's when they get them.

And the ScotRail HSTs will have work until the very end of their useful life, meaning that the expensive upgrades are worthwhile. Any HSTs on TransPennine would be completely useless after electrification is complete in 2023 or so, since no one else would want to take on these trains given that CrossCountry would be the only LDHS operator with a non-electrified core network and they would already be swimming in Voyagers/Meridians displaced from the rest of the network.

 

[physics34]

can i mention 442s

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Is it possible for the Trans Pennine Express to have High Speed trains in the future? The class 43, class 91 and DVT locomotives will be withdrawn from the First Great Western and Virgin East Coast fleet alongside Mark 3 and 4 coaches. Eventually the Midland Mainline will be electrified and therefore the class 43's and class 222's may be withdrawn. Is there any chance these High Speed Class 43/91/222 will find themselves in the First Trans Pennine Express fleet? Whilst some of these trains are getting old, they are bigger, faster and more comfortable than the current TPE fleet and gives the company opportunities to add capacity. They could be refurbished and painted and added to the fleet within a couple of years.

The downside of this idea is that the media will make it appear as though old Southern cast offs are replacing the current modern fleet. I am sure this has probably been suggested many times, but it seems like a sensible idea to use perfectly good trains on routes that should be operated with high speed high capacity trains.

There are certain forum members who also felt that the Class 230 ("Shooter Incubus") units fabricated from elderly LU stock were just the job...provided that they were all destined for Northern Rail.

Were not the Class 43 built in the mid 1970's to early 1980's period. Yet we see "another good idea" appear in print...as long as "up North" will be the recipient. I have emboldened the part of your posting in which you do feel this matter may be viewed as such.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Can i mention 442s

No, you most certainly cannot...

 

[Polo Mint]

Not without a new line being built alas. I'm sure others with more railway knowledge than me can articulate this better but there are a number of reasons. Much of the Trans Pennine route is actually very heavily used by commuters, it is also pretty much full with trains. You should see the number of people that get on and off at South Parkway alone, and double 185 won't even fit there as well as at some other stations. The Manchester Airport to Scotland route shouldn't be Trans Pennine in my mind, however, even if it wasn't I think there are limitations on what would fit in Manchester Airport station.

It is a funny old route. Whilst deep down I feel maybe it should be an "Intercity" service since that is what it does, it connects a number of large cities that are very close together and certainly on the Liverpool to Manchester stretch it is pretty heavily populated almost all the way. t has to be remembered that even Warrington is the biggest town in Cheshire with a larger population than Chester, despite not being a city. Plenty of people commute from Liverpool to Manchester and vice versa. When I briefly worked in Warrington I knew one lad who commuted there from Leeds. These people are not going to get the stopping service every day instead to free up capacity.

Yes some TPE services cater to commuters, but a decent Northern Rail could cater to regional commuter demand I would hope. Saying that though even Virgin West Coast deals with commuter traffic at towns like Wolverhampton and Macclesfield.

And the ScotRail HSTs will have work until the very end of their useful life, meaning that the expensive upgrades are worthwhile. Any HSTs on TransPennine would be completely useless after electrification is complete in 2023 or so, since no one else would want to take on these trains given that CrossCountry would be the only LDHS operator with a non-electrified core network and they would already be swimming in Voyagers/Meridians displaced from the rest of the network.

Perhaps electric HST's could be used in the longer term, but I didn't think about the whole DDA upgrade debacle to be honest.

There are certain forum members who also felt that the Class 230 ("Shooter Incubus") units fabricated from elderly LU stock were just the job...provided that they were all destined for Northern Rail.

Were not the Class 43 built in the mid 1970's to early 1980's period. Yet we see "another good idea" appear in print...as long as "up North" will be the recipient. I have emboldened the part of your posting in which you do feel this matter may be viewed as such.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


No, you most certainly cannot...

Do calm down. I was merely suggesting a medium term solution to improve services until newer high speed trains come on the market, how dare I!

 

[6Gman]

Hello,

Is it possible for the Trans Pennine Express to have High Speed trains in the future?



The downside of this idea is that the media will make it appear as though old Southern cast offs are replacing the current modern fleet.

Use the HSTs currently based at Edinburgh Craigentinny.

Then it'll be cast-offs from the North!

 

[DarloRich]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with any of the TPW stock. The 185/350 is fine for these runs. The simple fact is that they aren't long enough and nor are there enough units.

As P Pholp suggests i expect to see more the Hyundai things appear on this route. urgh.

 

[6Gman]

can i mention 442s

The first rule of the 442 Club is :


You must always suggest the 442s.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Why not reduce the length of the HST rakes? It has certainly been done before as I remember seeing in RAIL some years ago a picture of two coaches with a power car at each end operating a normal stopping local. I remember the story was that there was a shortage of 158s and all they had left to play with was two power cars and a few coaches - may have been either Great Western or Midland Mainline

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Why not reduce the length of the HST rakes? It has certainly been done before as I remember seeing in RAIL some years ago a picture of two coaches with a power car at each end operating a normal stopping local. I remember the story was that there was a shortage of 158s and all they had left to play with was two power cars and a few coaches - may have been either Great Western or Midland Mainline

Brake force v. speed is an issue with reduced length formations.

 

[darloscott]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with any of the TPW stock. The 185/350 is fine for these runs. The simple fact is that they aren't long enough and nor are there enough units.

As P Pholp suggests i expect to see more the Hyundai things appear on this route. urgh.

Yup I agree there is nothing wrong with the 185's apart from being waaay too small! I have been working in Yorkshire recently, and went to Manchester on a day off.

Unfortunately I was left stranded in Dewsbury when I was left behind by the 0820 - a full and standing 3-car and it left completely rammed, with around 30-40 people left behind. Luckily the next service (0846, ex Hull) turned up as a 6-car so I was able to travel on that... So not a huge problem in the end, apart from the 25 minute wait.

An isolated incident maybe but just one of many issues that happen every day on the network across the North.

 

[Stats]

Bidders for the franchise are reportedly working on plans that involve obtaining new Hitachi Class 800 trainsets.

Why is it that when bi-mode is mentioned, everyone assumes Hitachi AT300s? It could be an AT200 bi-mode, or I am sure there are other manufacturers that can build bi-mode. Do Hitachi have the capacity to build more units to the timetable that TPE will be looking at? We know that the GWR AT300s are being built in Japan because there isn't the capacity in the UK to assemble them here.

 

[6Gman]

Surely the answer for TPE is another 10-12 185s and 4-6 350s?

[How they would be paid for is another matter ]

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Surely the answer for TPE is another 10-12 185s and 4-6 350s?

[How they would be paid for is another matter ]

A new build of either 185s or 350s is not an option, the designs don't meet the current crash regs. Also for 350s, Siemens don't offer them any more anyway, they were superseded by the 380s. Any new DMU unit by them will probably be based on the 380s

 

[Haydn1971]

Why is it that when bi-mode is mentioned, everyone assumes Hitachi AT300s? It could be an AT200 bi-mode, or I am sure there are other manufacturers that can build bi-mode.

The AT300 design does have the raised central floor that wouldn't work with a mid-door design. However, there's nothing to say that a smaller diesel package could be slipped under a AT200 design. And agreed, other manufacturers have Bi-mode designs, but are not as yet progressed as far down the testing/proving process as the Class 800 units, so would be at a slight disadvantage.

Do Hitachi have the capacity to build more units to the timetable that TPE will be looking at? We know that the GWR AT300s are being built in Japan because there isn't the capacity in the UK to assemble them here.

Not in the UK at first, perhaps further down the line maybe.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Any new DMU unit by them will probably be based on the 380s

Is there any indication that the 380 design is still current ?

 

[Peter Sarf]

A new build of either 185s or 350s is not an option, the designs don't meet the current crash regs. Also for 350s, Siemens don't offer them any more anyway, they were superseded by the 380s. Any new DMU unit by them will probably be based on the 380s

I would imagine replacing the ten 350s working on TPE with more units/coaches along the lines of a 380 is a possibility. I feel sure London Midland (which is further South) would happily snap up these second hand units. Especially as, iirc, those ten 350s are leased to LM and then subleased to TPE.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

An isolated incident maybe but just one of many issues that happen every day on the network across the North.

Have to say its the same issues across most of the UK. Even here in twelve car land (South Central) I get left behind. That's most likely to happen when the train is short formed but was quite a regular occurrence for me with the off peak Thameslink services when they ran via London Bridge.

Basically a shortage of stock left, right and centre and a lack of money to spend on more seats and longer platforms. That has been the case for decades which is why the Pacers came into existence. In fact currently the solution down South seems to be heading towards trains with far fewer seats and a lot more standing room. Witness the 378s !.

I do 40+ minute journeys and don't even look for a seat so expecting intercity type stock for TPE is a long shot !. I remember the days when I travelled from Leeds to Manchester in a long rake of loco hauled Mark one coaches !. Wonder if we will ever see a return to that style. Granted iirc they replaced the Swindon built (long ?) transpennine DMUs that had wrap round windows so harking back to the loco hauled days is possibly a bit miss led. Even though I do prefer a coach with no engine droning and vibrating under it.

 

[WatcherZero]

Hitachi themselves said they had been approached by TPE bidders, they didnt specify what model they offered them though.

 

[Starmill]

The 185/350 is fine for these runs.

Yet another assertion that a 4x20m commuter EMU is 'fine' for a 300 mile inter-city journey. It's like DfT are paying you all off!?

Especially as, iirc, those ten 350s are leased to LM and then subleased to TPE.

No!

Witness the 378s !.

I do 40+ minute journeys and don't even look for a seat so expecting intercity type stock for TPE is a long shot !.

Because a short hop on London Overground is definitely a valid comparison to a 300 mile IC journey...

 

[SpacePhoenix]

A better offering from Siemens would be an updated version of the 444 (obviously AC mode), incorporating improvements made to the overall design of Desiros, but possibly as 10 car units (or maybe even 12 car)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Is there any indication that the 380 design is still current ?

I wonder why the Class 380 have such an ugly-looking angular front end?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

I wonder why the Class 380 have such an ugly-looking angular front end?

I think it's down to the crash regs, the distance between the driver and the very front of the train