Could they run vintage trams in Edinburgh?

[Citybreak1]

Not sure if it’s been asked before but I believe I seen these in Blackpool. Could Edinburgh do similar? Or why don’t they already? Would there be enough demand?

 

[Blindtraveler]

Don't see why not

 

[Vespa]

Some things to consider, voltage, wheel profile, change of current collector, signalling....

If these can be done don't see why not.

 

[AM9]

Blackpool is different because the track has remained in continuous use since vintage trams were the current stock. There was no need to make the new system in Edinburgh compatible in any way.

 

[Mothball]

I would imagine the biggest factor preventing it would be health and safety. The only place there is heritage tram/Road traffic interface is Fleetwood, a world away from Princess Street.

If by some miracle that could be overcome then you have to look at infrastructure. Presumably you would want either Edinburgh 23 or 35.

Preserved horse trams such as 23 cost a fortune to hire the horses, combined with the backlash of the Leeds 107 incident generally rules them out of operation at the minute.

As for 35, get the restoration out of the way and then you've got to get around;
Voltage, Edinburgh runs 750v, add in variables such as regenerative braking of the modern fleet could put it upto 900(?)v. Too high for a heritage fleet.

Overhead, unless you opted for a non Edinburgh tram with a pantograph, the overhead lines would nead modifying to accept trolley poles.

Wheel/rail profiles, I can't find Edinburghs profiles from a quick Google search, but potentially the easiest to overcome.

Signalling compatability. How easily can Edinburgh's system + the heritage trams be modified to work together.

Staff competencies and manuals for operation and maintenance.

No doubt a million and one paperwork hurdles across the whole scenario to ensure the operation would be safe and as bullet proof as can be.

The cost of all that would be eye watering and would be very unlikely to turn anything other than a enormous loss of money

 

[jp4712]

What was the Leeds 107 incident?

[edit - never mind, found it…]

http://www.britishtramsonline.co.uk/news/?p=4947

Accident at Leeds horse tram launch event​

Posted on Tuesday 27 August 2013 by Andrew Waddington
The entry into public service of newly restored Leeds horse tramcar 107 at the Middleton Railway over the August Bank Holiday weekend ended in tragedy, after a tragic accident resulted in one of the horse handlers being injured when one of the horses used to haul the tram bolted. This freak incident was a very sad end to what had been a historic and wonderful occasion.

At around 3:00pm on Monday 26th August, one of the horses which had been hired to pull Leeds 107 bolted during the process of changing ends. Whilst attempting to calm the horse, one of the accompanying staff was pushed underneath the tram, which was moving very slowly at the time. Emergency procedures were immediately put into place and once the woman had been rescued, she was taken to hospital with a suspected two broken legs.
This was a terrible conclusion to what should have been a weekend of great celebration for members of the Leeds Transport Historical Society, who have restored Leeds 107 into the stunning tram seen by visitors at the Middleton Railway’s transport event. After seven years of painstaking work, the tram entered passenger service for the first time in more than a century on Sunday 25th August, following initial empty running for testing and familiarisation purposes. Recent finishing touches, such as the application of period style advertisements, have created a beautiful vehicle and everyone involved in its restoration should be justly proud of what they achieved, as the quality of workmanship is absolutely superb. Short rides on the horse tram were offered over two days for £2 per person, with the proceeds being used to cover the high costs of hiring in horses for the event. Following the weekend’s events, 107 was loaded up on the morning of Tuesday 27th August and arrived at Crich Tramway Village the following day.
Our thoughts and sympathies go to not only the victim of this terrible incident, but also those who witnessed it, particularly the tram crew, as well as the event organisers. We sincerely hope that the woman who was hurt makes a speedy recovery, and that 107 can now look forward to an incident-free future in preservation.

 

[Vespa]

Further to my points above....

I had thought about it previously.

A similar thing could be achieved in a similar way in Manchester on the second city crossing route, a fairly straight section that can be temporarily isolated from the 750v and connected to a temporary 600v generator so a tramcar preferably a Manchester car to run up and down for special events without interfering with regular passenger services.

For this to be achieved at Edinburgh you would have to isolate part of the Leith route and create two separate systems temporarily with a walkway between the two for special events.

It's doable just need the will to do it.

 

[Mothball]

Further to my points above....

I had thought about it previously.

A similar thing could be achieved in a similar way in Manchester on the second city crossing route, a fairly straight section that can be temporarily isolated from the 750v and connected to a temporary 600v generator so a tramcar preferably a Manchester car to run up and down for special events without interfering with regular passenger services.

For this to be achieved at Edinburgh you would have to isolate part of the Leith route and create two separate systems temporarily with a walkway between the two for special events.

It's doable just need the will to do it.

If theoretically the line voltage could be dropped, every other point still stands. Maintenance, signalling, road traffic, type approval for the vehicle, gauging, current collection and above all else the paperwork. Even the public backlash of shutting down a busy route to stick a heritage tram on it.

Wheel profiles certainly becomes an issue with Metrolink due to the heavy/light rail track. I've never had the patience to read into it for more than 60 seconds but a heritage tram can't operate over the non-grooved pointwork, proved by the numerous derailments of Hull 96 and Berlin 3006 during the visits to Queens Road. No doubt there's someone on here who understands the compatability for the grooved rail sections.

In 2014 (unfortunetly pre-2CC) we did unload Manchester 765 in Albert Square for a day and Manchester 173 visited Victoria, alongside Metrolink in 2019 but remained on the low loader due to time restrictions. We certainly haven't ruled out repeating such things in the future, but having had this discussion in the pub numerous times the conclusion is, the heritage trams will never operate on Metrolink.

 

[Vespa]

If theoretically the line voltage could be dropped, every other point still stands. Maintenance, signalling, road traffic, type approval for the vehicle, gauging, current collection and above all else the paperwork. Even the public backlash of shutting down a busy route to stick a heritage tram on it.

Wheel profiles certainly becomes an issue with Metrolink due to the heavy/light rail track. I've never had the patience to read into it for more than 60 seconds but a heritage tram can't operate over the non-grooved pointwork, proved by the numerous derailments of Hull 96 and Berlin 3006 during the visits to Queens Road. No doubt there's someone on here who understands the compatability for the grooved rail sections.

In 2014 (unfortunetly pre-2CC) we did unload Manchester 765 in Albert Square for a day and Manchester 173 visited Victoria, alongside Metrolink in 2019 but remained on the low loader due to time restrictions. We certainly haven't ruled out repeating such things in the future, but having had this discussion in the pub numerous times the conclusion is, the heritage trams will never operate on Metrolink.

The difference in wheel profile is 1/2 inch tram flange and 1 inch on mainline/ modern tram if my memory serves, without check rails tram will derail on the first mainline track curves, on the straight you would get away with it.

 

[edwin_m]

Wheel profiles certainly becomes an issue with Metrolink due to the heavy/light rail track. I've never had the patience to read into it for more than 60 seconds but a heritage tram can't operate over the non-grooved pointwork, proved by the numerous derailments of Hull 96 and Berlin 3006 during the visits to Queens Road. No doubt there's someone on here who understands the compatability for the grooved rail sections.

Basically a heritage tram would need to be fitted with wheels having the same profile as the LRVs. This includes a thicker inner part of the wheel, which doesn't contact the rail but does engage with the (raised) check rails to steer the tram through non-grooved points. A heritage tram might have something else in the way that prevents fitting of the thicker wheels, which would have to extend further inwards. Note that this problem doesn't apply to Edinburgh.

 

[Lemmy282]

With thicker wheels you would have to alter all the brake rigging. Cast brake shoes on heritage trams are slotted so they fit over the flange as well as the tread.

 

[edwin_m]

With thicker wheels you would have to alter all the brake rigging. Cast brake shoes on heritage trams are slotted so they fit over the flange as well as the tread.

The flange and tread where the brake block contacts isn't that much different. The thicker part is further towards the centre of the wheel so it's above the level of the tread.

 

[jumble]

Not sure if it’s been asked before but I believe I seen these in Blackpool. Could Edinburgh do similar? Or why don’t they already? Would there be enough demand?

Its been done in Brussels who has a real can do attitude to trams
They rewired a section in the centre which was the first line )Legrand to Sainte Marie via Place Louise, Rue de la Régence, Place Royale and Rue Royale/Konings Straat) so that trams with trolley poles could be used and then in 2019 had a huge parade of 40 vintage trams including horse trams ( many had not run for years ) for teh 150th Aniversary
They also laid temporary tram tracks outside the royal palace and ran a vicinal steam tram ( two different ones actually) up and down
I was luck enough to ride next to the driver of a 1903 open fronted tram (346) with only a handbrake through the streets
( This would be considered far too dangerous here in UK but I lived to tell the tale)

https://trammuseum.brussels/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/150-Brochure-Parade-web-EN.pdf

Last Year Lucie the steam tram visited from the north Yorkshire moors

An 1890 steam tram locomotive visiting Brussels! – Musée du Transport Urbain Bruxellois

At the Brussels Tram Museum you can find a vast collection of vehicles that have spent their lifetime in the streets of the city, vehicles from a period that spans over a century.

trammuseum.brussels

 

[bluegoblin7]

I was luck enough to ride next to the driver of a 1903 open fronted tram (346) with only a handbrake through the streets
( This would be considered far too dangerous here in UK but I lived to tell the tale)

It happened in Blackpool in 2010.

Image rom Beamish Transport Online

There are a lot of people with a can-do attitude involved in trams and light rail in the UK, and there are plenty of examples of heritage trams visiting second generation systems where it is feasible. The reality is that, fundamentally, no amount of can-do will counteract a lot of the technical differences between modern and traditional trams. There are also a lot more considerations (legally) around the care and condition of accessioned Museum assets in the UK than there is elsewhere.

 

[jumble]

It happened in Blackpool in 2010.

Image rom Beamish Transport Online

There are a lot of people with a can-do attitude involved in trams and light rail in the UK, and there are plenty of examples of heritage trams visiting second generation systems where it is feasible. The reality is that, fundamentally, no amount of can-do will counteract a lot of the technical differences between modern and traditional trams. There are also a lot more considerations (legally) around the care and condition of accessioned Museum assets in the UK than there is elsewhere.

I was not aware of this however
I imagine this would not be allowed today
Are the chaps on the front ordinary members of the public or are they Blackpool staff I wonder ?

I was also at that event as it happens
I am certain that it is much easier on a first gen than a second gen system

 

[Lemmy282]

The driver is certainly a member of staff, however at least one of the others on the front is a member of the engineering team from Crich. When the tram went there the staff had to be coached how to drive it, no airbrakes or anything and they had to deal with it as a museum vehicle, not a normal service car!
Crich had a tram on long term loan to Blackpool until quite recently, Blackpool and Fleetwood box 40, and that runs perfectly well now it is back at Crich with no alterations to the wheels.
Back in 2012 or thereabouts the Cardiff water car 131 went from Crich to Blackpool to do some rail grinding, no problems with compatibility

 

[Mothball]

In recent memory, 2016/17, Marton 31 and Birkenhead 20 (At least I think 20 is handbrake only) have both operated in Blackpool with volunteer crew.

Blackpool has always been a anomaly both pre-flexity era and even now with heritage tram tours. Its much easier to continue doing something for so long than to start something like this for the first time.

 

[bluegoblin7]

The driver is certainly a member of staff, however at least one of the others on the front is a member of the engineering team from Crich. When the tram went there the staff had to be coached how to drive it, no airbrakes or anything and they had to deal with it as a museum vehicle, not a normal service car!
Crich had a tram on long term loan to Blackpool until quite recently, Blackpool and Fleetwood box 40, and that runs perfectly well now it is back at Crich with no alterations to the wheels.
Back in 2012 or thereabouts the Cardiff water car 131 went from Crich to Blackpool to do some rail grinding, no problems with compatibility

Box 40 also has no air brakes. There was vehicle familiarisation (on all visiting trams recent and historically) but your point is largely moot, tbh.

It’s also fairly clear that Blackpool is the outlier here, having retained traditional wheel profiles and had the overhead upgraded - at significant extra cost - to account for trolley poles and pantographs. These are all things missing on other modern systems.

A number of visiting heritage cars to Blackpool have, however, derailed (including Porto 273 from Crich in 2010)… so there are absolutely problems with compatibility.

I was not aware of this however
I imagine this would not be allowed today
Are the chaps on the front ordinary members of the public or are they Blackpool staff I wonder ?

I was also at that event as it happens
I am certain that it is much easier on a first gen than a second gen system

No reason why not; there’s other examples also such as Blackpool 167 with bench seats on the platforms - or indeed the various Boat cars. Next you’ll be saying open toppers can’t run…

Again, many of the senior leaders in UK tram operations (and within bodies such as UK Tram) are very forward thinking and proactive. If something can be done and the money is there, you can be certain they will try.

The lines with Blackpool have always been blurred (and it is therefore often the exception that proves the rule) but fundamentally Blackpool can run heritage trams because it has been designed for that purpose from the (very) start.

 

[gomango]

I dont think they can run vintage trams in Edinburgh for 2 reasons
1. Wires are to low for double deckers
2. Some of the bridges are too low to fit double decker vintages under

I don't know about single deckers though

 

[jumble]

Box 40 also has no air brakes. There was vehicle familiarisation (on all visiting trams recent and historically) but your point is largely moot, tbh.

It’s also fairly clear that Blackpool is the outlier here, having retained traditional wheel profiles and had the overhead upgraded - at significant extra cost - to account for trolley poles and pantographs. These are all things missing on other modern systems.

A number of visiting heritage cars to Blackpool have, however, derailed (including Porto 273 from Crich in 2010)… so there are absolutely problems with compatibility.



No reason why not; there’s other examples also such as Blackpool 167 with bench seats on the platforms - or indeed the various Boat cars. Next you’ll be saying open toppers can’t run…

Again, many of the senior leaders in UK tram operations (and within bodies such as UK Tram) are very forward thinking and proactive. If something can be done and the money is there, you can be certain they will try.

The lines with Blackpool have always been blurred (and it is therefore often the exception that proves the rule) but fundamentally Blackpool can run heritage trams because it has been designed for that purpose from the (very) start.

I don't particularly disagree with anything you are saying.

I think it is a safe bet that open toppers will be allowed to run indefinitely on the streets at Blackpool and San Francisco

Interestingly the Swiss did stop their open top trailers so you never know

Aussichtswagen / «Badwännli» bei Tram-Oldtimer Basel

BVB are taking open vintage trams out of service​

The vintage tram without a roof, also called “Badwännli”, is no longer allowed to run for safety reasons, as “Schweiz am Sonntag” reports.
According to the BVB media office, the reason is that falling overhead lines could injure passengers. The “Badwännli”, built in 1938, was previously used for city tours.
Former BVB director Daniel Oertli and SP councilor Jörg Vitelli criticize BVB's decision.

Switzerland on Sunday
April 28, 2013

 

[JamboCommuter]

I dont think they can run vintage trams in Edinburgh for 2 reasons
1. Wires are to low for double deckers
2. Some of the bridges are too low to fit double decker vintages under

I don't know about single deckers though

A single decker vintage service between St. Andrew Square and Ocean Terminal (where Britannia is berthed) would probably be a pretty decent tourist attraction.

There certainly would not be much demand to see the delights of Broomhouse and Stenhouse at the western end of the route!

I'd imagine there are no actual vintage single deck Edinburgh trams in existence, if there even were any back in the day. So there would need to be new vehicles built in a vintage style. Can't really see that happening somehow in view of cost.

 

[PsychoMouse]

Would love to see it, and tourists would lap it up.

 

[JonasB]

In both Stockholm and Gothenburg there are vintage trams running on the regular tram tracks, they are pretty popular with both locals and tourists.

 

[randyrippley]

Which vintage trams is the OP thinking of using?
If I've understood wiki properly there are three ex-Edinburgh trams, of which only one is capable of moving - and that one is horse drawn. The other two appear to be in need of major restoration including bogies and electricals having both being used for some years as static accommodation. As for the horse-drawn one, trying to use that would be unthinkable. Where are you going to find a team of heavy horses trained to city work and trained to following rails?