Could we see dual voltage 777 trains through the unused tunnel spur to run through to the City Line?

[Vespa]

moderator note: split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/merseyrail-class-777.153458

No they don’t prevent conversion. The thing that we cannot achieve is dual voltage (750V 3rd rail, 25kV overhead) and IPEMU. There isn’t enough space on the train.

Assuming you're able to utilise the unused tunnel spur near Central Station to connect with the 25kv City Line possibilities are endless imagine a direct connection from Manchester to the underground loop and Wirral Lines.

Dual voltage 777 2xx series will increase operational flexibility.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Assuming you're able to utilise the unused tunnel spur near Central Station to connect with the 25kv City Line possibilities are endless imagine a direct connection from Manchester to the underground loop and Wirral Lines.

Dual voltage 777 2xx series will increase operational flexibility.

No, just no.

Merseyrail is reliable and punctual because it is segregated. Importing delays from Castlefield onto Merseyrail would be disastrous. I'm sure @DavidPowell recognises that.

Warrington Central is the furthest it should ever go in the Manchester direction, if the "Merseyrail+Metrolink" option was to be taken for the CLC. And if you want to go to Wigan or "Rainford for South Skelmersdale Parkway", do it via Kirkby, a really easy extension if there ever was one.

I suppose though it might be worth going to a dedicated platform at Wigan NW via St Helens, with Merseyrail taking over the slow lines through Huyton, though. But not onto Castlefield.

 

[Adam Evans]

No, just no.

Merseyrail is reliable and punctual because it is segregated. Importing delays from Castlefield onto Merseyrail would be disastrous. I'm sure @DavidPowell recognises that.

Warrington Central is the furthest it should ever go in the Manchester direction, if the "Merseyrail+Metrolink" option was to be taken for the CLC.

Yeah I don't really understand the ambition to extend Merseyrail all the way to Warrington Central given that the City Line already does that fairly adequately (mostly). I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to it if an entire new line was built alongside the City Line and maybe serving places elsewhere on the way to Warrington to avoid too much duplication, but I can't see the DfT ever signing off something that extensive and expensive anytime soon.

Another issue would be with the Merseyrail + Metrolink proposal which would inevitably mean that that the express services between Liverpool and Manchester would likely be scrapped in favour of a high frequency but very slow stopping service all the way through from one side to the next which would involve a change at Warrington. I don't necessarily see this as a step up from what we currently have unless it is built on an entirely separate line which would allow the current City Line CLC services to continue as they do through to Manchester. Am I missing something though?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Another issue would be with the Merseyrail + Metrolink proposal which would inevitably mean that that the express services between Liverpool and Manchester would likely be scrapped in favour of a high frequency but very slow stopping service all the way through from one side to the next which would involve a change at Warrington. I don't necessarily see this as a step up from what we currently have unless it is built on an entirely separate line which would allow the current City Line CLC services to continue as they do through to Manchester. Am I missing something though?

If Northern Powerhouse Rail was to be built in full (flap flap oink oink, I know) this would provide an express service serving Warrington, and so the CLC Merseyrail+Metrolink option would be a good choice.

Until then it probably isn't.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

No, just no.

Merseyrail is reliable and punctual because it is segregated. Importing delays from Castlefield onto Merseyrail would be disastrous. I'm sure @DavidPowell recognises that.

Warrington Central is the furthest it should ever go in the Manchester direction, if the "Merseyrail+Metrolink" option was to be taken for the CLC. And if you want to go to Wigan or "Rainford for South Skelmersdale Parkway", do it via Kirkby, a really easy extension if there ever was one.

I suppose though it might be worth going to a dedicated platform at Wigan NW via St Helens, with Merseyrail taking over the slow lines through Huyton, though. But not onto Castlefield.

Just to put a cat amongst the pigeons, how about a Wigan Wallgate to Wigan North Western service? All stations via Rainford, Kirkby, Liverpool Central, Edge Hill and St. Helens Central?

 

[507020]

I suppose though it might be worth going to a dedicated platform at Wigan NW via St Helens, with Merseyrail taking over the slow lines through Huyton, though. But not onto Castlefield.

If you were going to build the Edge Hill spur, you may as well build some additional AC platforms at Central. In that case it might be better to run something else like a 331 into the tunnel, freeing up capacity at Lime Street but remaining segregated from the more reliable Merseyrail service.

I don’t agree with any service terminating at Warrington Central due to the loss of cross-Warrington connectivity. If it is extended it would need to go at least as far as Birchwood, with a Manchester service going at least as far as Warrington West.

 

[Adam Evans]

If Northern Powerhouse Rail was to be built in full (flap flap oink oink, I know) this would provide an express service serving Warrington, and so the CLC Merseyrail+Metrolink option would be a good choice.

Until then it probably isn't.

Ahh, I'm with you now, I didn't think they were being 'that' optimistic. But yeah NPR is unlikely to happen within the next couple of decades at this rate sadly.

I don’t agree with any service terminating at Warrington Central due to the loss of cross-Warrington connectivity. If it is extended it would need to go at least as far as Birchwood, with a Manchester service going at least as far as Warrington West.

I wish Northern got that message regarding their ridiculous decision to terminate one of their Liverpool to MCO stoppers at Warrington Central from December 2022 onwards.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you were going to build the Edge Hill spur, you may as well build some additional AC platforms at Central. In that case it might be better to run something else like a 331 into the tunnel, freeing up capacity at Lime Street but remaining segregated from the more reliable Merseyrail service.

I don't think Central actually needs more platforms. What it needs is wider platforms - the congestion is people (and how much of the platform is full of kit like escalators), not trains. If you connected some City Line services to the Ormskirks and/or Kirkbys, you wouldn't even have the congestion issues caused by reversing in the station (4tph can quite happily use the reversing siding - the Ormskirks do at present). The same 12tphpd runs through two platforms at Sandhills and Moorfields with no problems at all.

The ideal would be that something is connected to both the Ormskirks and Kirkbys and nothing at all terminates there. An interesting question is what could be done with 8tph to play with that would fit, without taking away services people want. Warrington Central/Birchwood probably isn't a great example as if you were going to do that you'd probably extend the Hunts Cross terminators. The only obvious one seems to be Wigan North Western - but could you put 4tph of Merseyrail onto that and still have the direct Blackpool?

One I would like to see is Liverpool Airport, but again that'd branch off the Hunts Cross line if it was done.

I would change Central to a wide side platform layout like St Pancras Thameslink. This would require minimal digging, as there's a lot of wasted space inside the box anyway, particularly at the ends. The station is not important for interchange within the Northern Line as there are two others (Sandhills and Moorfields) where this can take place on an island platform.

I don't think anything is really gained by running 25kV EMUs into segregated bays at Central. Is Lime St even that congested?

I don’t agree with any service terminating at Warrington Central due to the loss of cross-Warrington connectivity. If it is extended it would need to go at least as far as Birchwood, with a Manchester service going at least as far as Warrington West.

That would be unacceptable unless Castlefield was replaced with a Manchester S-Bahn tunnel. It is unacceptable to interwork anything that goes anywhere near Castlefield with Merseyrail - it will collapse.

 

[S&CLER]

Central Low Level to South Parkway via Mossley Hill and West Allerton could be a possibility, if a way could be found to get round the depot at Edge Hill without conflict. Voltage changeover could be at the east end of the tunnel in the Crown Street area, as an extension of third rail through the Wapping Tunnel would probably not encounter any objections, given that it is not accessible to the public. A station at Wavertree could be useful. The slow lines from Wavertree Jn to South Parkway are not heavily used and could be made over to Merseyrail. The fast line platforms at Mossley Hill and West Allerton could then be closed. There would then be no direct stopping trains from Mossley Hill and West Allerton to Hunts Cross and the CLC, but this would be acceptable for the relatively small number of passengers wanting this journey (compared to the larger number who want to go to Liverpool city centre), given frequent connections at South Parkway, although it's quite a walk from the high level to the low level platforms there. I don't see that it would be really necessary to run a "parliamentary" stopping train from South Parkway high level over the spur to Hunts Cross, but if it is, one would be enough. How much freight uses the slow lines?

 

[emoaconr]

If you were going to build the Edge Hill spur, you may as well build some additional AC platforms at Central. In that case it might be better to run something else like a 331 into the tunnel, freeing up capacity at Lime Street but remaining segregated from the more reliable Merseyrail service.

I don’t agree with any service terminating at Warrington Central due to the loss of cross-Warrington connectivity. If it is extended it would need to go at least as far as Birchwood, with a Manchester service going at least as far as Warrington West.

The CLC line does indeed need to be retained as an intercity route between Merseyside and Greater Manchester.

I do however see the theoretical logic in a Merseyrail meets Metrolink tram-train scenario at Warrington Central. If this was ever to happen, I think we'd need to retain limited-stop fast Lime Street-Warrington-Manchester intercity trains alongside this. I can foresee this would require extra platforms at Warrington Central, and the whole set-up of two entirely different networks (notwithstanding differing traction, electrification, standards etc) might make this unfeasible.

I think what might be more likely is that the Hunts Cross services could be extended to Warrington Central, in addition to the Lime Street-Manchester services. Again, this may be problematic whilst interworking alongside ex-Lime Street services without loops/platforms

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think what might be more likely is that the Hunts Cross services could be extended to Warrington Central, in addition to the Lime Street-Manchester services. Again, this may be problematic whilst interworking alongside ex-Lime Street services without loops/platforms

There are 2 elephants in the room here - Mossley Hill and West Allerton. If you run Merseyrail to Warrington Central at 2tph, say, instead of the current 2tph Lime St-Warrington Central stopper, what do you do with those?

Here's an outlandish option:

2tph Merseyrail extended from Hunts X to Warrington C in place of the current 2tph Lime St-Warrington C stopper. The other two potentially to extend to Gateacre at some undefined point as per the 1970s plan.
2tph 25kV EMU from Lime St to Manchester Oxford Road, calling at South Parkway, Widnes, Warrington W, Warrington C then all stations to Manchester Oxford Road. Because of Castlefield this should NOT run to Central. Warrington C should be rebuilt with a layout such that this service can be held there if late so as not to delay the Merseyrail service.
Question is can we cram in the 1tph Norwich there? I expect so as it's not vastly more than runs now. I guess we couldn't path 4tph Merseyrail plus the above though hence 2.

And now for the outlandish bit. Build the above noted connection, and extend the current 4tph from Ormskirk or Kirkby onto the almost-unused slow lines to call at Edge Hill, Mossley Hill, West Allerton, South Parkway and...wait for it...Speke Hall Road* and Liverpool Airport. There's surprisingly little** in the way of building what would be a fairly short extension from the Lime St slow lines. This would be hugely popular. It could run from Lime St if needs be, but it would seem one of the better things to connect to the south end of one of the Merseyrail Northern Line services.

* Somewhere near the Dobbies Garden Centre - should be a good one for regeneration of an utter dive of an estate.
** Other than a road. Like the Skem proposal, it's a dual carriageway, so it should be possible to have it take over one carriageway (Merseyrail to the Airport would significantly reduce road traffic), or just cut-and-cover it underneath or bridge over the top depending on which would be easier based on the height of surrounding land.

 

[MattRat]

Why do it when there are other options for certain stations. Warrington via South parkway, Wigan via Kirby, and Preston via Ormskirk. They have their own challenges, but less so than the Edge Hill tunnels.

 

[S&CLER]

There are 2 elephants in the room here - Mossley Hill and West Allerton. If you run Merseyrail to Warrington Central at 2tph, say, instead of the current 2tph Lime St-Warrington Central stopper, what do you do with those?

Here's an outlandish option:

2tph Merseyrail extended from Hunts X to Warrington C in place of the current 2tph Lime St-Warrington C stopper. The other two potentially to extend to Gateacre at some undefined point as per the 1970s plan.
2tph 25kV EMU from Lime St to Manchester Oxford Road, calling at South Parkway, Widnes, Warrington W, Warrington C then all stations to Manchester Oxford Road. Because of Castlefield this should NOT run to Central. Warrington C should be rebuilt with a layout such that this service can be held there if late so as not to delay the Merseyrail service.
Question is can we cram in the 1tph Norwich there? I expect so as it's not vastly more than runs now. I guess we couldn't path 4tph Merseyrail plus the above though hence 2.

And now for the outlandish bit. Build the above noted connection, and extend the current 4tph from Ormskirk or Kirkby onto the almost-unused slow lines to call at Edge Hill, Mossley Hill, West Allerton, South Parkway and...wait for it...Speke Hall Road* and Liverpool Airport. There's surprisingly little** in the way of building what would be a fairly short extension from the Lime St slow lines. This would be hugely popular. It could run from Lime St if needs be, but it would seem one of the better things to connect to the south end of one of the Merseyrail Northern Line services.

* Somewhere near the Dobbies Garden Centre - should be a good one for regeneration of an utter dive of an estate.
** Other than a road. Like the Skem proposal, it's a dual carriageway, so it should be possible to have it take over one carriageway (Merseyrail to the Airport would significantly reduce road traffic), or just cut-and-cover it underneath or bridge over the top depending on which would be easier based on the height of surrounding land.

I agree, as per my post above, but I'm not quite sure that it would be possible for a Merseyrail extension through the Wapping Tunnel to call "at Edge Hill", certainly not at the existing platforms. It would seem to need additional platforms at the end of the cutting, with a walkway from them to the existing platforms. Perhaps that's what you meant. At present the northern island at Edge Hill handles trains on the Chat Moss and St Helens lines, the southern island those for Runcorn and Warrington directions; neither platform has room for a 4tph Merseyrail service to be superimposed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why do it when there are other options for certain stations. Warrington via South parkway, Wigan via Kirby, and Preston via Ormskirk. They have their own challenges, but less so than the Edge Hill tunnels.

The reason to do an Airport line from the WCML slows rather than from the Hunts Cross line is fairly obvious if you look at Google aerial view. Plus it'd be good to bring the local stations at Edge Hill, Mossley Hill and West Allerton onto Merseyrail.

Why do it when there are other options for certain stations. Warrington via South parkway, Wigan via Kirby, and Preston via Ormskirk. They have their own challenges, but less so than the Edge Hill tunnels.

Don't forget the intermediates. I do support extending to Wigan Wallgate via Kirkby, but bringing St Helens* onto Merseyrail proper would also be a big gain. And Central would work better if it didn't have 8tph terminating there.

* Well, all of Edge Hill, Wavertree Tech Park, Broad Green, Roby, Huyton, Prescot, Eccleston Park, Thatto Heath and St Helens C, anyway. I could see a case for 4tph as far as St Helens C but then 2 onwards to Wigan NW as Bryn and Garswood are quieter. Would it be possible to send the hourly fast EMU to Preston and Blackpool via Parkside instead, perhaps just doing Lea Green, Wigan NW then all stations to Blackpool? That said you probably could squeeze it in between 4tph of Merseyrails.

 

[emoaconr]

Getting the crayons out, I made an "achievable-aspirational" map some time ago. I'm no expert whatsoever, certainly no cartographer either. But I tried myself to match up lines in the best way possible to avoid a significant rebuild at Central. Very much realms of fantasy, I well know, and nigh-on impossible in many regards.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Getting the crayons out, I made an "achievable-aspirational" map some time ago. I'm no expert whatsoever, certainly no cartographer either. But I tried myself to match up lines in the best way possible to avoid a significant rebuild at Central. Very much realms of fantasy, I well know, and nigh-on impossible in many regards.

Your route to the Airport is interesting - it looks even clearer than mine, though you'd need to bridge the WCML.

In that case, I think you've got an even neater pattern for the south Northern Line - 4tph Southport-Warrington Central, 4tph (Wigan Wallgate 2tph)-Headbolt Lane-Liverpool Airport (Kirkby specifically because it'd use battery units from Hunts X to the Airport, whereas you would want to use 750+25kV ones for Southport-Warrington C). Yes, it'd result in overserving of Brunswick, Aigburth, Cressington, LSP Low Level and Hunts X (8tph each) but I don't think that's disastrous. You could consider missing some of those on the Warringtons (I was going to say the Airports, but a lot of airport workers live around those places).

That would leave 4 more trains per hour to send onto the City Lines. 2 for a short run to South Parkway High Level calling at Edge Hill, Mossley Hill and West Allerton, and 2 to Wigan via St Helens?

 

[Arkeeos]

I think its important to note that the Metrolink on the CLC line wouldn't be trams, based off TfGMs aspirational plans its a tunnel from Ardwick to Cornbrook and I would assume that regular metro trains would be used. So no reason why It cant take inspiration from Japan and the Lines between Yokohama and Tokyo which operate as subways between both cities.

 

[emoaconr]

Interesting thread on the WBRUA Twitter page concerning the IPEMUs and the Borderlands Line specifically:

https://twitter.com/WBRailUA/status/1591433920683577344?t=Io9dUDCXK0MUducfSTS7JA&s=19

Some photos of the slides used by LCRCA during the presentation also. Slide showing potential a map of the IPEMU routes is interesting, apparently with still aspirations for Southport via Burscough, Wrexham, Warrington , Helsby, AC City Lines via Huyton, and interestingly Chester - Crewe. Interestingly whilst Skem is still on the map, it is now referred to as "Skelmersdale/Wigan" on the slide itself - perhaps an acceptance of the reality here.

 

[507020]

Interesting thread on the WBRUA Twitter page concerning the IPEMUs and the Borderlands Line specifically:

https://twitter.com/WBRailUA/status/1591433920683577344?t=Io9dUDCXK0MUducfSTS7JA&s=19

Some photos of the slides used by LCRCA during the presentation also. Slide showing potential a map of the IPEMU routes is interesting, apparently with still aspirations for Southport via Burscough, Wrexham, Warrington , Helsby, AC City Lines via Huyton, and interestingly Chester - Crewe. Interestingly whilst Skem is still on the map, it is now referred to as "Skelmersdale/Wigan" on the slide itself - perhaps an acceptance of the reality here.

What’s interesting about Southport via Ormskirk is that from the opening of the Manchester and Southport Railway on 9 April 1855, the Liverpool, Ormskirk and Preston Railway was still owned by the East Lancashire Railway and until it’s amalgamation with the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway on 13 August 1859, Wigan - Burscough Bridge was wholly owned by the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway but Burscough Bridge - Southport was jointly owned by the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway and the East Lancashire Railway, meaning the initial competition was such that Liverpool Exchange - Southport via Ormskirk was the East Lancashire route from Liverpool to Southport while the Liverpool, Crosby and Southport Railway along the coast was the Lancashire and Yorkshire route to Southport. They are therefore equally valid routes in their own right.

I’m also pleased to see Hunts Cross - Birchwood listed, with services not terminating short at Warrington Central. As for AC 777s from Lime Street, there would be nothing wrong with them on the Wigan North Western service, but they are more likely to run the hourly Warrington Bank Quay service than they are to reach Manchester. The question is how would an AC unit get to Kirkdale depot via the Canada Dock branch without a battery?

 

[Greybeard33]

As for AC 777s from Lime Street, there would be nothing wrong with them on the Wigan North Western service, but they are more likely to run the hourly Warrington Bank Quay service than they are to reach Manchester.

The Lime Street to Warrington Bank Quay service is being binned. See the December 2022 Timetable thread:

...the WBQ service was at the bottom of the pile in terms of revenue vs cost to run in the whole of the west side of Northern so unless Merseytravel want (and fund) this service there's not much likelyhood of it coming back any time soon in any frequent form.

 

[MattRat]

Interesting thread on the WBRUA Twitter page concerning the IPEMUs and the Borderlands Line specifically:

https://twitter.com/WBRailUA/status/1591433920683577344?t=Io9dUDCXK0MUducfSTS7JA&s=19

Some photos of the slides used by LCRCA during the presentation also. Slide showing potential a map of the IPEMU routes is interesting, apparently with still aspirations for Southport via Burscough, Wrexham, Warrington , Helsby, AC City Lines via Huyton, and interestingly Chester - Crewe. Interestingly whilst Skem is still on the map, it is now referred to as "Skelmersdale/Wigan" on the slide itself - perhaps an acceptance of the reality here.

So where did the information come from that the Burscough curve wouldn't be reinstated? Since LCRCA seem in favour of it.

 

[Chester1]

Ahh, I'm with you now, I didn't think they were being 'that' optimistic. But yeah NPR is unlikely to happen within the next couple of decades at this rate sadly.

NPR route is currently:

- Lime Street to WCML near Widnes
- Rebuild of freight line from Widnes to Warrington Bank Quay, reopening of low level platforms, reopening of line to outskirts of Warrington
- New line from Warrington to HS2 (south of Manchester Airport
- HS2 to Piccadilly
- New line from Piccadilly to Marsden
- Marsden to ECML using current route that is currently subject of Transpenine upgrade

This would create significant spare capacity on existing routes but there would be no spare capacity between Lime Street and Edge Hill. It would reinvigorate proposals to connect Edge Hill to Liverpool Central.

Why do it when there are other options for certain stations. Warrington via South parkway, Wigan via Kirby, and Preston via Ormskirk. They have their own challenges, but less so than the Edge Hill tunnels.

I agree. All three could use overhead electrification or battery power, depending on range and cost. I think that post covid the focus for infrastructure upgrades will be decarbonisation not additional capacity.

I think its important to note that the Metrolink on the CLC line wouldn't be trams, based off TfGMs aspirational plans its a tunnel from Ardwick to Cornbrook and I would assume that regular metro trains would be used. So no reason why It cant take inspiration from Japan and the Lines between Yokohama and Tokyo which operate as subways between both cities.

Tram trains would be more flexible than traditional metro units that would require their own depot and staff and couldn't use current network during closures. Metrolink junctions are designed for a maximum of 60m trams (double sets are 57m long). Units 60m long consisting of five single door 12m cars would be suitable for a budget metro.

 

[Bletchleyite]

With regard to 60m non tram LRVs, the new Tyne and Wear Metrocars would seem a direct shoe-in at 60m long.

 

[Chester1]

With regard to 60m non tram LRVs, the new Tyne and Wear Metrocars would seem a direct shoe-in at 60m long.

Its not going to happen unless or until NPR is built between Liverpool and Manchester. That rules out any existing designs. Extension of Merseyrail services could happen, especially if battery units are successful on the extension to Headbolt Lane. The best plans while NPR is up in the air would be extending Merseyrail using battery power.

If they can be made to work reliably the TfW 769s would be a good fit for the CLC. It should be straightforward to extend wires 3/4 of a mile to Trafford Park Station (no bridges) and provide it with a half hourly stopper service to enable 769s to change power at the station. That would limit diesel use by stoppers in built up areas and faster acceleration would enable more stops to be served by each service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

769s are no more suitable for the CLC than Class 101 power trailer sets (the Irlam stopper used to be a 101 years ago but I believe it was always a power twin, and those could easily keep 142 timings). You need acceleration because of the number of stops. 150s and 195s work, but nothing else in Northern's fleet really does. Even a 319 on the wires would probably be a bit too sluggish, but 769s are the slowest accelerating units on the railway now.