Could we see electrification and speed improvements from London to Sheffield by 2026?

[YourMum666]

Moderator note: Split from

MML Electrification: progress updates

There's an article about NR's plans in Rail this week (#765 p54). It seems that work on site will start in April 2015, the contractor being Carillion Powerlines. They will be using road-rail vehicles for the work, not a high-output system. The 125mph design isn't explicitly named but seems...

www.railforums.co.uk

Great, once the wires get north of leicester it should take much less time to get to sheffield, hopefully wires should be up completely by 2025-2026 with no more obstacles

 

[John R]

Great, once the wires get north of leicester it should take much less time to get to sheffield, hopefully wires should be up completely by 2025-2026 with no more obstacles

I think that’s a very optimistic timescale. You would have to get authorisation of the whole lot now to stand any chance of achieving that, with boots ready to hit the ground too and all the design work completed.

 

[YourMum666]

I think that’s a very optimistic timescale. You would have to get authorisation of the whole lot now to stand any chance of achieving that, with boots ready to hit the ground too and all the design work completed.

that’s what i’m hoping for, not another repeat of the GW electrification programme

 

[snowball]

I think that’s a very optimistic timescale.

You took the words out of my mouth!

 

[Killingworth]

You took the words out of my mouth!

Sheffield by 2030 is the current official line so probably means nearer 2035.

Tripling of the line from Dore into Sheffield and reconfiguring Sheffield station won't be quick. According to the IRP the tripling is required to allow the 3 fast services between Manchester and Sheffield supposedly to be provided by the Hope Valley Capacity Scheme completing in 2024 - after being in planning since the1990s.

 

[Mugby]

Great, once the wires get north of leicester it should take much less time to get to sheffield, hopefully wires should be up completely by 2025-2026 with no more obstacles

Much less time to get to Sheffield? What makes you think the linespeed will be significantly increased just because it's electrified?

 

[mike57]

3 years, when work hasn't even started. Not a hope. I bet work on the ground wont have even started by 2026 apart maybe some prep works where it can be done while doing other work.

Electrification seems to be stalled currently, take York Manchester, there are two small schemes currently, York Church Fenton and Stalybridge Manchester, and both these seem to be slow to the point of almost stalled.

What I cant see is where the problem is, the technology has been around for well over 50 years in the UK, but there just seems to be a total inability to deliver. I suspect it has more to do with the contractual arrangements rather than technological difficulties.

 

[dk1]

Even 2030 sounds optimistic. I wouldn’t expect that to be set in stone.

 

[zwk500]

Even 2030 sounds optimistic. I wouldn’t expect that to be set in stone.

This is MML electrification. I'm fully expecting it to be cut back to Derby, because Sheffield isn't allowed nice things by HMG.

 

[dk1]

This is MML electrification. I'm fully expecting it to be cut back to Derby, because Sheffield isn't allowed nice things by HMG.

Bimodal so passengers would never know the difference I suppose.

 

[zwk500]

Bimodal so passengers would never know the difference I suppose.

Certainly a 'can't miss what they've never had' approach at times.

 

[D365]

In answer to the OP’s question. Yes, we ’could’, if enough resources were thrown at it. But we all know what reality looks like.

 

[Nottingham59]

With 810 bimodes, there is no reason any more why MML electrification needs to go progressively from South to North. If I were HMG, I would announce doing Dore to Sheffield next, as that could be spun as levelling up the North, delivering part of NPR, and delivering the first part of the HS2 Eastern leg.

Probably north from Chesterfield as that is where the feeder site is going to be.

 

[zwk500]

With 810 bimodes, there is no reason any more why MML electrification needs to go progressively from South to North. If I were HMG, I would announce doing Dore to Sheffield next, as that could be spun as levelling up the North, delivering part of NPR, and delivering the first part of the HS2 Eastern leg.

Probably north from Chesterfield as that is where the feeder site is going to be.

There are good reasons to keep the electrified sections contiguous if you can though. Adjacent feeder stations can load balance to some extent if there's a problem with one FS, you save the Pan going up and down like a yo-yo, and it saves on engine cycles for the diesel gensets. It's worth skipping Leicester as it may require remodelling or rebuilding between Wigston and Syston and you only want to have to electrify something once. But Derby's already been rebuilt so there's little value in skipping it.

 

[YourMum666]

This is MML electrification. I'm fully expecting it to be cut back to Derby, because Sheffield isn't allowed nice things by HMG.

I really hope it doesn’t because HMG doesn’t gain anything by ending wires at derby

 

[zwk500]

I really hope it doesn’t because HMG doesn’t gain anything by ending wires at derby

It gains the quite significant benefit of not having to borrow quite so much money. If I was running the project I'd not be stopping at Sheffield but going all the way to Doncaster as well, but, alas, I do not run the world.

 

[HSTEd]

We can't even do TPE electrification by 2026 and work is already underway on that!

By 2026 you might get another study that proposes "optimisation" of the schedule for "cheaper" completion, at the cost of not being done before 2050.

 

[DanNCL]

Could we? Yes. Will we? Definitely not.

There is no willpower or effort from the DFT to do electrification at any sensible pace.

 

[class26]

Certainly a 'can't miss what they've never had' approach at times.

but you are forgetting that HS2 trains will need to juice to reach Sheffield, they will not be bi mode !

 

[zwk500]

but you are forgetting that HS2 trains will need to jouce to reach Sheffield, they will not be bi mode !

Hs2 trains are a very, very long time away from being able to reach Sheffield. Has there even been any announcement of the intended service level to Yorkshire now that they've changed their mind from Toton to EM Parkway?

 

[MattRat]

but you are forgetting that HS2 trains will need to jouce to reach Sheffield, they will not be bi mode !

With the way things are currently going, I wouldn't rule that off the table....

 

[zwk500]

With the way things are currently going, I wouldn't rule that off the table...

I would say HS2 not serving Sheffield is more likely than HS2 using bimodes.

 

[Nottingham59]

There are good reasons to keep the electrified sections contiguous if you can though. Adjacent feeder stations can load balance to some extent if there's a problem with one FS, you save the Pan going up and down like a yo-yo, and it saves on engine cycles for the diesel gensets. .... But Derby's already been rebuilt so there's little value in skipping it.

Politicians don't care about such trifles. How many photo opportunities do those bring compared to cutting the ribbon on the first electric 810 out of Sheffield?

EDIT: And, coming to think of it, there's less faffing with pan-up and pan-down wiring Sheffield compared to Derby. If there are good reasons to skip Leicester for now, then doing Sheffield would involve only pan up around Dore. Any other section would involve two pan operations north of Wigston. And if something goes wrong with the feeder, then the 810s are bimode...

 

[YorksLad12]

One good reason I always felt for wiring Sheffield is that the station is in a bit of a hollow. All those PM5s and PM2.5s lurking around, getting into people's lungs... not helped by four lanes of traffic on Sheaf Street and the fact that every taxi driver ignores the "Turn your engine off when waiting" signs.

 

[MattRat]

I would say HS2 not serving Sheffield is more likely than HS2 using bimodes.

I'd say Leeds is already the sacrificial lamb. HS2 is much more of a benefit for London to Sheffield than it is for London to Leeds, and London to Leeds also has the benefit of the ECML which is much easier to upgrade, unlike the MML.

However, if they had to cut something involving Sheffield, then theoretically electrification would be one. It would be incredibly stupid and short sighted, but when has that ever stopped politicians?

 

[zwk500]

Politicians don't care about such trifles. How many photo opportunities do those bring compared to cutting the ribbon on the first electric 810 out of Sheffield?

Very true

EDIT: And, coming to think of it, there's less faffing with pan-up and pan-down wiring Sheffield compared to Derby. If there are good reasons to skip Leicester for now, then doing Sheffield would involve only pan up around Dore. Any other section would involve two pan operations north of Wigston. And if something goes wrong with the feeder, then the 810s are bimode...

If you proceed northwards from Syston to Sheffield without interruption, you have pan down Wigston, up Syston, down Ambergate/etc and vice versa. If you did Syston-Trent and then Sheffield, you'd have 1 extra pan change per run (down trent, Up Dore).

One good reason I always felt for wiring Sheffield is that the station is in a bit of a hollow. All those PM5s and PM2.5s lurking around, getting into people's lungs... not helped by four lanes of traffic on Sheaf Street and the fact that every taxi driver ignores the "Turn your engine off when waiting" signs.

MML electrification on it's own won't do an awful lot about that, of course. It's one reason why it's frustrating to see no mention of Sheffiled-Doncaster so at least the Sheffield-Doncaster/Ardwick service could be given to EMUs.

 

[popeter45]

This is MML electrification. I'm fully expecting it to be cut back to Derby, because Sheffield isn't allowed nice things by HMG.

anywhere that starts with a S* as GWML showed us

 

[zwk500]

anywhere that starts with a S* as GWML showed us

Swindon got it's wires in the end

 

[WAO]

Once we have a lot of miles AT wired and 125mph capable EMU's, I imagine that the 110mph stretches of the MML would then be upgraded to 125mph as it appears that it is mainly signalling that restricts this. The WCML has a similar capability, curves excepted, but the Avanti's don't need it.

Glass half full..

WAO

 

[dosxuk]

The MML has been using 125mph capable stock for decades, yet there has only been a few short stretches upgraded to allow for that speed. Much of the route is quite twisty anyway, I'm not sure there's actually much scope for speed upgrades.