Could we see further journey time improvements on the London to Norwich route?

[oliMw]

Are there any plans to speed up services given the superior performance of the 745s? For example, a few times now I’ve done Diss to Norwich in 15 mins.

Since travelling regularly again I keep noticing the fact that an average journey time between Norwich to London is close to 2 hours now, instead of the 1h50 it used to be before the pandemic with the 90s.

 

[306024]

Diss to Norwich will always include 2 minutes recovery time unless the timetable planning rules change. The Norwich service has already been speeded up slightly within the constraints of the current timetable, more may be possible but on a congested 2 track railway from Haughley Jn all the way to Shenfield other slower trains tend to get in the way.

 

[Class 170101]

Are there any plans to speed up services given the superior performance of the 745s? For example, a few times now I’ve done Diss to Norwich in 15 mins.

Since travelling regularly again I keep noticing the fact that an average journey time between Norwich to London is close to 2 hours now, instead of the 1h50 it used to be before the pandemic with the 90s.

They have been sped up running on Class 745 timings vice Class 90 timings. As noted above they will be subject to the two track railway and especially what runs on it between Haughley Jn and Stratford, Class 720s may allow services to be accelerated further but Freight wants to run heavier therefore slower trains so how fast they get remains to be seen.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

They have been sped up running on Class 745 timings vice Class 90 timings. As noted above they will be subject to the two track railway and especially what runs on it between Haughley Jn and Stratford, Class 720s may allow services to be accelerated further but Freight wants to run heavier therefore slower trains so how fast they get remains to be seen.

Although freight trains may be heavier don't forget they're more likely to be the more powerful class 90s as opposed 86s so hopefully the impact won't be as bad.. ironic really

 

[Bald Rick]

Although freight trains may be heavier don't forget they're more likely to be the more powerful class 90s as opposed 86s so hopefully the impact won't be as bad.. ironic really

It used to be 2x86s... and in any event the 66 is the most likely traction which is no better than either.

 

[Class 170101]

Although freight trains may be heavier don't forget they're more likely to be the more powerful class 90s as opposed 86s so hopefully the impact won't be as bad.. ironic really

1600 tonnes for 1x Class 66 not 2x Class 86s or 90s.

 

[306024]

Greater Anglia want to run faster trains, while freight companies want to run heavier trains. Obviously these are opposing forces which can’t be reconciled without someone being disappointed, or a compromise that suits neither.

The 745s are very nippy, but if you can design a timetable to take complete advantage of their speed you will most likely reduce capacity on the very busy GEML. The GEML works best when most trains travel at similar average speeds.

 

[Bikeman78]

Greater Anglia want to run faster trains, while freight companies want to run heavier trains. Obviously these are opposing forces which can’t be reconciled without someone being disappointed, or a compromise that suits neither.

The 745s are very nippy, but if you can design a timetable to take complete advantage of their speed you will most likely reduce capacity on the very busy GEML. The GEML works best when most trains travel at similar average speeds.

An obvious medium term solution is to upgrade and electrify the route to Nuneaton via Peterborough. That would take a fair bit of freight off the GEML. The Dutch built an entirely new freight line from Rotterdam to Germany to free up paths on the existing network.

 

[eastdyke]

An obvious medium term solution is no upgrade and electrify the route to Nuneaton via Peterborough. That would take a fair bit of freight off the GEML. The Dutch built an entirely new freight line from Rotterdam to Germany to free up paths on the existing network.

Dutch built but who provided the funding?
Rotterdam moves about 14.5million TEUs/yr, Felixstowe a bit over a quarter of that.

A new line from Felixstowe, perhaps to Peterborough could cost around £5-10bn.

 

[Bald Rick]

An obvious medium term solution is no upgrade and electrify the route to Nuneaton via Peterborough. That would take a fair bit of freight off the GEML.

Electrification would take precisely no freight off the GEML. The route is essentially at capacity. Hence the Ely Area Capacity project, amongst other proposals.

 

[Bikeman78]

Electrification would take precisely no freight off the GEML. The route is essentially at capacity. Hence the Ely Area Capacity project, amongst other proposals.

I meant to type "to upgrade." So yes Ely area and double the single track section amongst other things.

 

[colchesterken]

Other countries seem more ambitious or more willing to spend money than us
The French built a high speed by-pass for Montpellier for what seems to me little point, trains that no longer stop at the main
City station stop at Sette for interchange to the old line, and we have spent years talking about a new station at Chelmsford

 

[Bald Rick]

Other countries seem more ambitious or more willing to spend money than us
The French built a high speed by-pass for Montpellier for what seems to me little point, trains that no longer stop at the main
City station stop at Sette for interchange to the old line, and we have spent years talking about a new station at Chelmsford

Point of order - plenty of TGVs still serve Montpellier St Roch. As, of course, do all the local and regional services.

The Contournement Nîmes - Montpellier (to give it its official title) was built to provide extra capacity in the corridor, particularly freight. It also knocks a few minutes off journey time for TGVs heading to Perpignan and beyond.

 

[Grumbler]

Other countries seem more ambitious or more willing to spend money than us
The French built a high speed by-pass for Montpellier for what seems to me little point, trains that no longer stop at the main
City station stop at Sette for interchange to the old line, and we have spent years talking about a new station at Chelmsford

Perhaps a new line is needed, direct from east London via Haverhill and Bury St. Edmunds to join up with an upgraded Breckland line east of Thetford for Norwich? Somehow I can't see it getting the go-ahead...

 

[Roast Veg]

Point of order - plenty of TGVs still serve Montpellier St Roch. As, of course, do all the local and regional services.

The Contournement Nîmes - Montpellier (to give it its official title) was built to provide extra capacity in the corridor, particularly freight. It also knocks a few minutes off journey time for TGVs heading to Perpignan and beyond.

They all seem to be calling at Nimes at the minute - is that just a covid thing?

 

[dk1]

Are there any plans to speed up services given the superior performance of the 745s? For example, a few times now I’ve done Diss to Norwich in 15 mins.

Since travelling regularly again I keep noticing the fact that an average journey time between Norwich to London is close to 2 hours now, instead of the 1h50 it used to be before the pandemic with the 90s.

Up to 7 minutes where removed from some schedules last May in the down direction. Not quite so much up road & still far to much dwell times but until any recast of the timetable takes place many trains just catch up with others at pinch points.

 

[Alfie1014]

First ‘new’ Norwich in 90 (08:00 ex NOR) arrived in Liverpool St 1 early this morning according to RTT. All in all a pretty good AM peak pretty much everything RT, though as mentioned elsewhere many 5 car 720s out and about.

 

[Peter Sarf]

First ‘new’ Norwich in 90 (08:00 ex NOR) arrived in Liverpool St 1 early this morning according to RTT. All in all a pretty good AM peak pretty much everything RT, though as mentioned elsewhere many 5 car 720s out and about.

Making me think. Have Anglia dispensed with the heritage units so they can run trains with better accelerating cass 720 units even though they might not yet have enough 720s to run full length ?.

 

[dk1]

First ‘new’ Norwich in 90 (08:00 ex NOR) arrived in Liverpool St 1 early this morning according to RTT. All in all a pretty good AM peak pretty much everything RT, though as mentioned elsewhere many 5 car 720s out and about.

100% of trains ran with only two delayed & both of those where by only 1-4 minutes. Great achievement for the most intensive peak in 18mths.

 

[eastdyke]

100% of trains ran with only two delayed & both of those where by only 1-4 minutes. Great achievement for the most intensive peak in 18mths.

^

 

[Pugwash]

100% of trains ran with only two delayed & both of those where by only 1-4 minutes. Great achievement for the most intensive peak in 18mths.

When you consider the timetable padding this hardly seems an achievement, most Chelmsford to Liverpool St Journeys in the Morning Peak are now 37-40 mins, this should be a 30 min journey with the trains they have.

 

[dk1]

When you consider the timetable padding this hardly seems an achievement, most Chelmsford to Liverpool St Journeys in the Morning Peak are now 37-40 mins, this should be a 30 min journey with the trains they have.

Still a mix of old & new. No significant timetable alterations until some time in 2022.

 

[dk1]

First ‘new’ Norwich in 90 (08:00 ex NOR) arrived in Liverpool St 1 early this morning according to RTT. All in all a pretty good AM peak pretty much everything RT, though as mentioned elsewhere many 5 car 720s out and about.

The new Ni90 schedules have been extremely reliable in time keeping since restarting on 13th September.

 

[Class 170101]

When you consider the timetable padding this hardly seems an achievement, most Chelmsford to Liverpool St Journeys in the Morning Peak are now 37-40 mins, this should be a 30 min journey with the trains they have.

With two intermediate stops at Stratford and Shenfield good luck getting a 30 minute journey time even with a Class 720.

 

[cle]

Greater Anglia want to run faster trains, while freight companies want to run heavier trains. Obviously these are opposing forces which can’t be reconciled without someone being disappointed, or a compromise that suits neither.

The 745s are very nippy, but if you can design a timetable to take complete advantage of their speed you will most likely reduce capacity on the very busy GEML. The GEML works best when most trains travel at similar average speeds.

Perhaps north of Colchester there would be capacity to tweak some timings. Below that, you're at the mercy of the more mixed stock and stopping patterns. In time, hopefully so as the rest of the stock catches up, and Crossrail/platforms changes all come online.

But over the years, there are now a lot more fast calls at Stratford and Shenfield. And Chelmsford, to a degree. When I used to use this route, Colchester was always the first stop.

Side note, I think all trains call at Nimes. After Montpellier, it's the largest city on that route.

 

[dk1]

Due to football at Stratford today some additional & strengthened services are operation. One additional is 1P29 10:23 Norwich-Liverpool Street which will also call at stations through Essex. It is booked to return as an additional 1P30 13:07 Lst-Nrw running non-stop & booked to complete the journey in just 87 minutes. Sadly I am hearing that it is going to get stop orders at Colchester & Ipswich for some reason & that somewhat spoils the fun. I would still be all out for doing the journey in less than 90 if driving but we will have to see what sort of run it gets.

 

[Alfie1014]

Due to football at Stratford today some additional & strengthened services are operation. One additional is 1P29 10:23 Norwich-Liverpool Street which will also call at stations through Essex. It is booked to return as an additional 1P30 13:07 Lst-Nrw running non-stop & booked to complete the journey in just 87 minutes. Sadly I am hearing that it is going to get stop orders at Colchester & Ipswich for some reason & that somewhat spoils the fun. I would still be all out for doing the journey in less than 90 if driving but we will have to see what sort of run it gets.

4 late arriving in Norwich so Norwich in 91.5 mins.

 

[dk1]

4 late arriving in Norwich so Norwich in 91.5 mins.

Yes, just a shame.

 

[Grumbler]

4 late arriving in Norwich so Norwich in 91.5 mins.

What is the record fastest time?

 

[dk1]

What is the record fastest time?

Around 82 minutes loco-hauled. Don’t think anything’s been attempted with Stadlers. Most Ni90s appear to be doing it in around 87-88 mins but slotting them in with scheduled services means there’s not much leeway to have a play.