Covent Garden station - close and join to Leicester Square?

[adamedwards]

Covent Garden to Leicester Square is the shortest gap between stations on the London Underground. My understanding is this then leads to bunching of trains on the Piccadilly which doesn't help a very busy line.
So questions for the engineers and signallers:

• Will new signalling be able to smooth this out by reducing the gaps between trains, so Covent Garden stops being an issue?
• If not (and asuming unlimited funds which I know TfL do not have) if a foot tunnel were built joining Leicester Square platforms to the Covent Garden lifts, would removing Covent Garden as a stop and putting the passengers into Lecicester Square work or would it simply overload Leicester Square and gain nothing?

Thoughts from the hive mind appreciated.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Like with Mornington Crescent and Camden Town, it's all about people capacity. Without both stations one wouldn't cope.

Pre COVID at least Cannon St is similar - it's VERY close to Bank/Monument, but pre COVID and pre Bank rebuild Bank/Monument wouldn't have been able to cope.

Sure, there are a few tourists who get the train between the two, which is pointless, but it'll be a small number, and probably fewer than there were now people will be using Google Maps etc.

 

[greyman42]

Covent Garden to Leicester Square is the shortest gap between stations on the London Underground. My understanding is this then leads to bunching of trains on the Piccadilly which doesn't help a very busy line.
So questions for the engineers and signallers:

• Will new signalling be able to smooth this out by reducing the gaps between trains, so Covent Garden stops being an issue?
• If not (and asuming unlimited funds which I know TfL do not have) if a foot tunnel were built joining Leicester Square platforms to the Covent Garden lifts, would removing Covent Garden as a stop and putting the passengers into Lecicester Square work or would it simply overload Leicester Square and gain nothing?

Thoughts from the hive mind appreciated.

Holborn is also close to Covent Garden so that could take the passengers arriving from that direction.

 

[Mikey C]

The gap between Covent Garden to its neighbours is of course short enough, that only tourists (mythical?) would deliberately go one stop to get there, but in reality it's still a reasonable distance from either Leicester Square or Holborn if you're already on the tube, especially the Piccadilly Line. A greater distance than that between many DLR stations for example.

 

[edwin_m]

Holborn is also close to Covent Garden so that could take the passengers arriving from that direction.

Holborn is also proposed for a rebuild - I think it's on hold for lack of funds, but it indicates crowding is a problem there too.

 

[davews]

Having once when I had planned to join the tube at Covent Garden but found it closed the walk to Leicester Square on a busy Saturday night seemed rather longer than it should have been... Close but hardly next door.

 

[edwin_m]

For some reason, what became the Piccadilly line west of Holborn was built with stations closer together than on other Tube lines. Down Street and Brompton Road were closed in the 1930s, leaving some longer gaps than were typical for Central London. I suspect they looked at closing Covent Garden too, which would have eliminated the shortest gap of all, but decided against it as presumably it was considered too important even then. Does anyone know the actual history here?

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Holborn is also proposed for a rebuild - I think it's on hold for lack of funds, but it indicates crowding is a problem there too.

I hope it's also on hold until the effect of the Elizabeth Line at Tottenham Court Road becomes clear.

 

[DelW]

Covent Garden to Leicester Square is the shortest gap between stations on the London Underground. My understanding is this then leads to bunching of trains on the Piccadilly which doesn't help a very busy line.
So questions for the engineers and signallers:

• Will new signalling be able to smooth this out by reducing the gaps between trains, so Covent Garden stops being an issue?
• If not (and assuming unlimited funds which I know TfL do not have) if a foot tunnel were built joining Leicester Square platforms to the Covent Garden lifts, would removing Covent Garden as a stop and putting the passengers into Lecicester Square work or would it simply overload Leicester Square and gain nothing?

Thoughts from the hive mind appreciated.

I can't see what benefit a foot tunnel would provide, when there's a direct road route on the surface? Since Covent Garden isn't an interchange, there's no obvious benefit from providing a connection within the barriers. I suppose a tunnel would keep the rain off, but it's likely that passengers would need to walk in the open to/from the station anyway. It would also be hugely expensive and disruptive to construct in a very congested area,

 

[edwin_m]

I can't see what benefit a foot tunnel would provide, when there's a direct road route on the surface? Since Covent Garden isn't an interchange, there's no obvious benefit from providing a connection within the barriers. I suppose a tunnel would keep the rain off, but it's likely that passengers would need to walk in the open to/from the station anyway. It would also be hugely expensive and disruptive to construct in a very congested area,

Also I believe the lifts at Covent Garden are one of the main reasons it's capacity-limited, so a tunnel that relies on those same lifts probably doesn't help much.

 

[leytongabriel]

For some reason, what became the Piccadilly line west of Holborn was built with stations closer together than on other Tube lines. Down Street and Brompton Road were closed in the 1930s, leaving some longer gaps than were typical for Central London. I suspect they looked at closing Covent Garden too, which would have eliminated the shortest gap of all, but decided against it as presumably it was considered too important even then. Does anyone know the actual history here?

I think this was up for discussion - Sunday closure and full closure along with Mornington Crescent and a few other 'underused' stations ( Regent's Park?) when Covent Garden was still in the doldrums, market closing and no tourists around then.

 

[AlbertBeale]

I can't see what benefit a foot tunnel would provide, when there's a direct road route on the surface? Since Covent Garden isn't an interchange, there's no obvious benefit from providing a connection within the barriers. I suppose a tunnel would keep the rain off, but it's likely that passengers would need to walk in the open to/from the station anyway. It would also be hugely expensive and disruptive to construct in a very congested area,

Have you ever tried walking that "direct road route" at a time when the area is full of visitors/tourists? I'm a local, and it takes me quite a while; and for people who don't know the area ... well, the surface route would take far longer than walking between some other pairs of stations which are - as the crow flies - further apart. If I was arriving via the Piccadilly and wanted to get somewhere near Covent Garden station, I'd never dream of getting off at Leicester Square and walking, despite knowing about the lift congestion at the former.

 

[DelW]

Have you ever tried walking that "direct road route" at a time when the area is full of visitors/tourists? I'm a local, and it takes me quite a while; and for people who don't know the area ... well, the surface route would take far longer than walking between some other pairs of stations which are - as the crow flies - further apart. If I was arriving via the Piccadilly and wanted to get somewhere near Covent Garden station, I'd never dream of getting off at Leicester Square and walking, despite knowing about the lift congestion at the former.

I have, most recently on a Friday lunchtime last December when I was late arriving to meet friends at the Nags Head in Covent Garden. Having got off the Northern Line at Leicester Square, I walked along Long Acre, judging that to probably be quicker than changing to the Piccadilly for one stop. So I do practice what I preach .
Agreed that it can be busy, but I usually walk it and would expect to beat the Piccadilly transfer more often than not (it obviously depends how long the wait is for the Picc train).

 

[Snow1964]

For some reason, what became the Piccadilly line west of Holborn was built with stations closer together than on other Tube lines. Down Street and Brompton Road were closed in the 1930s, leaving some longer gaps than were typical for Central London. I suspect they looked at closing Covent Garden too, which would have eliminated the shortest gap of all, but decided against it as presumably it was considered too important even then. Does anyone know the actual history here?

At those closed stations the entrances to the next station were moved from the original location, because sloping escalators were installed instead of vertical lifts. So physically got nearer at street level, which meant there was less need for the stations. I understand it also meant cost of installing escalator shaft and the short platform tunnel extensions could be avoided at those stations (from memory they were bit too short for 7car standard stock)

Both Leicester Square and Piccadilly Circus were rebuilt as interchange stations in 1920s. In case of Leicester Square a below road ticket hall was added, and some extra entrances added (just staircases). Piccadilly Circus was rebuilt as the hub of the Empire with escalators that are in two flights with change of direction. New entrances were built around the circus (before Shaftesbury Memorial (Eros) was moved and was in middle of road). There was a long subway from the old ticket hall (as extra entrance, which I think is now closed). The original entrance being south of the circus (think it was in Haymarket, nearer Norris Street)

 

[edwin_m]

At those closed stations the entrances to the next station were moved from the original location, because sloping escalators were installed instead of vertical lifts. So physically got nearer at street level, which meant there was less need for the stations. I understand it also meant cost of installing escalator shaft and the short platform tunnel extensions could be avoided at those stations (from memory they were bit too short for 7car standard stock)

Both Leicester Square and Piccadilly Circus were rebuilt as interchange stations in 1920s. In case of Leicester Square a below road ticket hall was added, and some extra entrances added (just staircases). Piccadilly Circus was rebuilt as the hub of the Empire with escalators that are in two flights with change of direction. New entrances were built around the circus (before Shaftesbury Memorial (Eros) was moved and was in middle of road). There was a long subway from the old ticket hall (as extra entrance, which I think is now closed). The original entrance being south of the circus (think it was in Haymarket, nearer Norris Street)

Presumably this would have brought the nearest entrance at Leicester Square closer to Covent Garden, so while this helps to explain the closure of the other stations it doesn't explain why Covent Garden was spared.

 

[bramling]

Have you ever tried walking that "direct road route" at a time when the area is full of visitors/tourists? I'm a local, and it takes me quite a while; and for people who don't know the area ... well, the surface route would take far longer than walking between some other pairs of stations which are - as the crow flies - further apart. If I was arriving via the Piccadilly and wanted to get somewhere near Covent Garden station, I'd never dream of getting off at Leicester Square and walking, despite knowing about the lift congestion at the former.

Depends where one is actually heading though. If heading to somewhere like the LT museum then it’s just as easy to use Leicester Square, but avoiding walking along Long Acre. Likewise if heading for the top end of Neal Street. For anything over the east side it’s just as easy to use Holborn. Charing Cross, Embankment and Temple also serve the area well.

Personally I would avoid Covent Garden firstly because of the lifts (I’m happy to use the stairs in principle, but that can be a miserable experience due to the numbers of people that attempt to use them, struggle and then cause an obstruction), but also because the immediate area outside the station is a nightmare to negotiate. So if at all possible I will find another route to approach the area based on what my final destination is.

 

[AlbertBeale]

I have, most recently on a Friday lunchtime last December when I was late arriving to meet friends at the Nags Head in Covent Garden. Having got off the Northern Line at Leicester Square, I walked along Long Acre, judging that to probably be quicker than changing to the Piccadilly for one stop. So I do practice what I preach .
Agreed that it can be busy, but I usually walk it and would expect to beat the Piccadilly transfer more often than not (it obviously depends how long the wait is for the Picc train).

I take your point, if you're having to change lines at Leicester Square in any case; I was meaning if you're on the Piccadilly Line anyway, walking from Leicester Square isn't anywhere as quick as going the extra stop, despite what the distance is on a map.

At those closed stations the entrances to the next station were moved from the original location, because sloping escalators were installed instead of vertical lifts. So physically got nearer at street level, which meant there was less need for the stations. I understand it also meant cost of installing escalator shaft and the short platform tunnel extensions could be avoided at those stations (from memory they were bit too short for 7car standard stock)

Both Leicester Square and Piccadilly Circus were rebuilt as interchange stations in 1920s. In case of Leicester Square a below road ticket hall was added, and some extra entrances added (just staircases). Piccadilly Circus was rebuilt as the hub of the Empire with escalators that are in two flights with change of direction. New entrances were built around the circus (before Shaftesbury Memorial (Eros) was moved and was in middle of road). There was a long subway from the old ticket hall (as extra entrance, which I think is now closed). The original entrance being south of the circus (think it was in Haymarket, nearer Norris Street)

I remember the other (more southerly) entrance to Piccadilly Circus station years ago - I'd forgotten about its disappearance, since I almost never enter or leave the system there these days, unlike many years back.

Depends where one is actually heading though. If heading to somewhere like the LT museum then it’s just as easy to use Leicester Square, but avoiding walking along Long Acre. Likewise if heading for the top end of Neal Street. For anything over the east side it’s just as easy to use Holborn. Charing Cross, Embankment and Temple also serve the area well.

Personally I would avoid Covent Garden firstly because of the lifts (I’m happy to use the stairs in principle, but that can be a miserable experience due to the numbers of people that attempt to use them, struggle and then cause an obstruction), but also because the immediate area outside the station is a nightmare to negotiate. So if at all possible I will find another route to approach the area based on what my final destination is.

I know what you mean about the stairs at stations - I also find the main deterrent at busy times at the deeper ones is having to get past other people who've flaked out part way!

 

[DelW]

I take your point, if you're having to change lines at Leicester Square in any case; I was meaning if you're on the Piccadilly Line anyway, walking from Leicester Square isn't anywhere as quick as going the extra stop, despite what the distance is on a map.

Yes, if I'd already been on the Piccadilly I'd have got off at Covent Garden too, despite the likely queues for the lifts. I suppose my view is influenced by my usually getting to the west end on the Northern or Bakerloo!

 

[Bald Rick]

Have you ever tried walking that "direct road route" at a time when the area is full of visitors/tourists? I'm a local, and it takes me quite a while; and for people who don't know the area ... well, the surface route would take far longer than walking between some other pairs of stations which are - as the crow flies - further apart. If I was arriving via the Piccadilly and wanted to get somewhere near Covent Garden station, I'd never dream of getting off at Leicester Square and walking, despite knowing about the lift congestion at the former.

I find this very odd. If I’m arriving Leics Sq on the Northern, or Piccadilly from the west, with a destination of anywhere in Covent Garden, I alight there and walk. It is always quicker than the lifts at Cov Garden. I tend to use Floral St simply because there’s no traffic, but Long Acre is fine.

 

[YorksLad12]

Bizarrely, I was watching one of Jago Hazzard's YouTube videos on this very subject earlier this evening. In short: they tried to close it twice, but then those pesky tourists went and made the area popular (even with the queue for the lifts) after the market moved out.