Crew changes on Cross-Country and long distance (inter) Regional services

[dtin]

For services that cover multiple regions, where and how many driver or crew changes. I'm mainly thinking about CrossCountry/Virgin XC as well as Central Trains and East Midlands Trains regional services.

For example the Nottingham to Cardiff (or Worcester/Hereford in Central Trains days) and would there just be a driver change at Birmingham New St? and are the Birmingham to Stansted Airport or Leicester just crewed by one driver and guard throughout as they are a little bit shorter.? How would it work for the Norwich to Liverpool Lime Street runs, does one driver do they whole journey or at least as far as Manchester?

On shorter CrossCountry journeys like Manchester to Bristol/Exeter/Plymouth or Bournemouth (in the past this could be Brighton or Portsmouth) is there just a crew change at Birmingham New Street or do they also change drivers at somewhere like Reading, or Exeter St Davids/Plymouth for services beyond Bristol?

If we include other long distance regional services such as those operated by Wales and Borders Trains services like London Waterloo to Cardiff and West Wales or Manchester. Would one driver go all the way to Bristol or Cardiff or would there be a switch at somewhere like Salisbury/Westbury.
For the Manchester Piccadilly to Penzance service via the Welsh Marches Line, would they swap from a WB crew to a Wessex crew at Bristol Temple Meads, or would they swap at Exeter or Plymouth? (bearing in mind the service split northbound at Bristol and merged southbound at Newport)

 

[Harpo]

Each TOC’s traincrew strategy will determine most of that, deciding where depots are, what route and traction they have, relief points and what typical diagrams look like. That and cover arrangements then determines how many employees are needed (the ‘establishment’).

Driver T&Cs will govern many things such as diagram length, maximum driving time, PNB and other requirements.

Don’t forget that if a driver has prepped and driven the ECS that forms a service they could well have booked on an hour or more before the train starts its journey.

 

[MerlinRail 804]

When I did the Penzance to Aberdeen last Bank Holiday I think there were crew changes at Plymouth, Bristol, New Street, Newcastle, and Edinburgh, so I imagine most XC services would do something similar

 

[dtin]

When I did the Penzance to Aberdeen last Bank Holiday I think there were crew changes at Plymouth, Bristol, New Street, Newcastle, and Edinburgh, so I imagine most XC services would do something similar

So there was no driver change at York/Leeds or Sheffield? I thought there would be a driver change between Birmingham and Newcastle.

 

[MerlinRail 804]

So there was no driver change at York/Leeds or Sheffield? I thought there would be a driver change between Birmingham and Newcastle.

Might have been, but I remember we had the same TM and caterer for that whole section

 

[Lewisham2221]

Short answer - it depends

Not every service on a particular route will be the same. It all depends on what's been deemed to be most efficient when producing the diagrams. As noted above, drivers will potentially have already spent time on unit prep and ECS, there may be differing T&C's, max driving time etc etc. Driver and guard aren't "paired", so any given service could potentially have, say, 2 guards and 4 drivers or vice versa. As train crew, sometimes you get a simple "there and back" diagram where you work a service (or a sizeable chunk of it) from A to B, have a break and then B back to A. Other times, your diagram might be more "bitty" - several shorter hops between relief points.

 

[Zerothebrake!]

In the case of XC:-

Plymouth Drivers work Penzance to New St.
Bristol Drivers cover New St to Plymouth & Cardiff. New St work Derby to Bristol, Manchester to Bournemouth & Cardiff to Stansted. Derby Drivers sign Newcastle to Bristol. Leeds work from Newcastle to Birmingham.Newcastle Drivers sign Edinburgh to Derby & Edinburgh cover Glasgow & Aberdeen to Leeds.

 

[Harpo]

For the uninitiated, having route knowledge doesn’t mean that crew will always work over the full extent of it on every job.

 

[Watershed]

Nottingham to Cardiff would (almost?) always have a crew change at Birmingham. Birmingham to Leicester will be a single driver/guard throughout, whereas Stansted services will always have a crew change at Cambridge, and occasionally also at Leicester, since they rather short-sightedly removed Cambridge-Stansted route knowledge from the Birmingham drivers during Covid. Bizarrely Leicester crews don't sign towards Cambridge at all, they only sign the 'triangle' of Birmingham-Nottingham-Leicester-Birmingham.

Norwich to Liverpool is generally just one change at Nottingham, although a handful of the early and late services also have a change at Sheffield due to them running ECS to/from Liverpool immediately before/after being in service - there's not enough time for a break there, and Nottingham to Liverpool and back is too long without a break.

No idea how the old Wales & Borders services worked, though I presume it may have involved a Westbury crew change for the Waterloo services and a change at Bristol and possibly Exeter and/or Plymouth for the Manchester-Penzance services. I wonder which depot signed the Maindee Curve avoiding Newport?

Manchester to Bristol would always require a change at Birmingham, since neither Manchester nor Bristol drivers sign beyond Birmingham on that axis. Only Birmingham drivers sign both sides of the route, and they couldn't really fit in a return trip to both Manchester and Bristol into a shift, taking into account breaks and turnround timings.

I imagine Manchester to Bournemouth services are sometimes worked by a Manchester driver as far as Reading, though most of them instead change at Birmingham. Bournemouth crews go up to Birmingham and vice versa.

Most changes take place at a station where there is a crew depot both because it's the most efficient and because it allows for spare/contingency drivers to be utilised more easily if someone calls in sick or an inbound service is delayed. However, a handful of services don't - for example Reading doesn't have a XC depot for drivers (only for Train Managers). Most curiously of all, Carmarthen and Shrewsbury drivers swap units when trains pass each other at Llandrindod on the Heart of Wales line, with neither signing the route beyond in either direction.

 

[Harpo]

Nottingham to Cardiff would (almost?) always have a crew change at Birmingham. Birmingham to Leicester will be a single driver/guard throughout, whereas Stansted services will always have a crew change at Cambridge, and occasionally also at Leicester, since they rather short-sightedly removed Cambridge-Stansted route knowledge from the Birmingham drivers during Covid. Bizarrely Leicester crews don't sign towards Cambridge at all, they only sign the 'triangle' of Birmingham-Nottingham-Leicester-Birmingham.

Norwich to Liverpool is generally just one change at Nottingham, although a handful of the early and late services also have a change at Sheffield due to them running ECS to/from Liverpool immediately before/after being in service - there's not enough time for a break there, and Nottingham to Liverpool and back is too long without a break.

No idea how the old Wales & Borders services worked, though I presume it may have involved ………and a change at Bristol and possibly Exeter and/or Plymouth for the Manchester-Penzance services. I wonder which depot signed the Maindee Curve avoiding Newport?

I cab rode Shrewsbury to Cardiff circa 1999 with a Crewe-based Wales & West driver. His job that day was Crewe-Newport, Newport to Bristol, Bristol to Manchester, Manchester to Crewe.

Most curiously of all, Carmarthen and Shrewsbury drivers swap units when trains pass each other at Llandrindod on the Heart of Wales line, with neither signing the route beyond in either direction.

Previously it was Swansea and Shrewsbury. Changing cabs has been the norm going back to the 70s and maybe further?

I seem to recall that Shrewsbury signed at least to Llanelli in BR days for specials (and maybe Swansea before that?). The Western had Pantyfynnon crews who signed Shrewsbury and could work loco & coaches but didn’t generally work DMUs, although the guards refreshed DMUs to assist Swansea in the summer leave period when coal traffic was low.

 

[Watershed]

I cab rode Shrewsbury to Cardiff circa 1999 with a Crewe-based Wales & West driver. His job that day was Crewe-Newport, Newport to Bristol, Bristol to Manchester, Manchester to Crewe.

That must have been a long diagram!

Previously it was Swansea and Shrewsbury. Changing cabs has been the norm going back to the 70s and maybe further?

I seem to recall that Shrewsbury signed at least to Llanelli in BR days for specials (and maybe Swansea before that?). The Western had Pantyfynnon crews who signed Shrewsbury and could work loco & coaches but didn’t generally work DMUs, although the guards refreshed DMUs to assist Swansea in the summer leave period when coal traffic was low.

It was only with the change to the December 2024 timetable, under which all trains pass at Llandrindod, that Shrewsbury lost the route knowledge from Llandrindod to Llanwrtyd. I imagine they may regain it when the additional daily train is reintroduced this December.

 

[Harpo]

That must have been a long diagram!

I’d guess at around 11 hours. It stuck in my mind because driving Bristol to Manchester via the North & West would have been an endurance test for certain parts of the body.

The driver (a senior bloke) had obviously thought things through as he switched his cab light on to wave to each bobby so ‘if anything happens the last box will say I was awake’!

 

[dtin]

I cab rode Shrewsbury to Cardiff circa 1999 with a Crewe-based Wales & West driver. His job that day was Crewe-Newport, Newport to Bristol, Bristol to Manchester, Manchester to Crewe.

Previously it was Swansea and Shrewsbury. Changing cabs has been the norm going back to the 70s and maybe further?

I seem to recall that Shrewsbury signed at least to Llanelli in BR days for specials (and maybe Swansea before that?). The Western had Pantyfynnon crews who signed Shrewsbury and could work loco & coaches but didn’t generally work DMUs, although the guards refreshed DMUs to assist Swansea in the summer leave period when coal traffic was low.

Looking at the locations of the driver depots the Wales and West long distance services must've swapped from a Welsh crew to a Wessex Trains crew at Bristol and then again at Exeter St Davids, as they had a driver depot there rather than Plymouth. However that does mean someone had to drive Exeter to Penzance, which would be over 3 hours, but based on what you're saying about the Wales and West shifts, then it sounds like they could be driving a very long distance for just one journey. On one timetable the wait at Exeter was longer than both Bristol and Plymouth on the southbound journey but only had a long waiting time at Plymouth and Bristol on the northbound Journey.