Cross Country cutting out Winchester, Basingstoke and other stops

[Towers]

In other news, my local Tesco supermarket is fed up with all those pesky customers trying to come in and provide them with an income, so they’re going to stop selling the stuff that most people want to buy and only open between 1am and 4.30am every second Tuesday…

No, that would be silly wouldn’t it! In the real world only the railway deals with increased demand by making their product unusable!

As for Basingstoke, perhaps someone could ask SWR to now reconsider their bizarre policy of stopping every fast Waterloo at Winchester but having plenty of them still omit Basing, despite there being obvious connectional potential from the latter but none from the former. It’s always been daft, but in absence of the XC alternative it would now make even more sense to make Basingstoke a stop for everything.

 

[mangyiscute]

More likely to end up standing on the section towards Oxford/Banbury, maybe XC should make Oxford pick up only to stop carrying local passengers between Reading & Oxford which go to the voyager because it runs in front of the GWR

I've said this before, the main issue with XC crowding on this section is north of oxford, since so many people board at oxford and are getting on an already busy train. Removing Reading-Oxford passengers wouldn't fix this since they create more space at Oxford anyway, and the GWRs are also very busy if they're 5 coach trains so its just shifting the overcrowding elsewhere.

I’ve certainly seen a very full, and thus delayed northbound Voyager at Basingstoke on a Saturday morning; well over 50 people getting on.

If you think 50 people is a lot, you should come and see how many people can be waiting at Oxford for these trains - i've often seen 200+ - clearly on an already crowded 4 coach voyager, you have a massive problem

 

[nw1]

Not quite right, back in 1970s a lot of summer Saturday services to Bournemouth (usually Poole or Weymouth then) skipped both Reading and Basingstoke. The former avoided loco run round. From memory skipped Banbury too.

To be fair I was thinking more of the standard all-year services rather than the summer Saturday specials, which, as you say, used to skip a lot of stations. I think many were even non-stop Birmingham to Oxford, then avoided Reading like you say.

For example there were three "XC" services in 1977. All called at Basingstoke, Winchester and Southampton, though they did skip Brockenhurst.

Thanks.

This is the most relevant screen shot.

As well as the Reading-Salisbury, the EWR service is interesting.

Not least because that would take up the Newcastle XC extensions, and those would put Guildford and Portsmouth back on the XC map - it’s not Brighton but many will be happy!

I’m curious if EWR will reach Reading sooner - ie Cambridge is mentioned here but for now it’ll be 2tph Oxford-MKC. And when Bedford joins, will Bedford or MKC be more desirable? Slight side bar, but interesting.

And basically a third XC service through Reading each hour.

Interesting, as an aside there is a "new Didcot-Reading stopping service". As there are already 2tph on this stretch, are they proposing a third?

Is there really demand for 3tph from Tilehurst, Goring and the rest?

Also mentions another Newbury-Reading, which makes more sense as it would mean 2tph stopping trains on this stretch, which seems reasonable.

I do like the sound of a return of the Portsmouth XC, if only for nostalgic reasons. This (the Portsmouth-Manchester, often 1M03) was my first ever experience of InterCity and long-distance rail travel. Not sure it would warrant an hourly service but maybe 4-hourly occasional extensions at well-chosen times (e.g morning, midday and late afternoon northbound, and midday, late afternoon and evening arrivals at Portsmouth southbound, with one set overnighting at Fratton) might make sense. I do recognise that I might get pilloried for this, but, opinions are opinions and we should be free to express them

In contrast to my thoughts on Basingstoke, I don't think stopping XC at Green Park is a good idea. It should really be only stopping at major town centre stations, this will slow it down too much and remove what "InterCity" ambience it still has.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

As for Basingstoke, perhaps someone could ask SWR to now reconsider their bizarre policy of stopping every fast Waterloo at Winchester but having plenty of them still omit Basing, despite there being obvious connectional potential from the latter but none from the former. It’s always been daft, but in absence of the XC alternative it would now make even more sense to make Basingstoke a stop for everything.

Winchester on SWR’s fast services is nothing to do with connectivity but the fact it is one of SWR’s highest revenue earning stations with demand to match.

 

[mangyiscute]

In contrast to my thoughts on Basingstoke, I don't think stopping XC at Green Park is a good idea. It should really be only stopping at major town centre stations, this will slow it down too much and remove what "InterCity" ambience it still has.

I'd like them to call at green park as football specials when Reading are playing, as the turbos can get pretty crowded (and as someone who often travels to the game from Oxford the XC calls would be superb), but I don't know how feasible having football special stops is.

 

[nw1]

I'd like them to call at green park as football specials when Reading are playing, as the turbos can get pretty crowded (and as someone who often travels to the game from Oxford the XC calls would be superb), but I don't know how feasible having football special stops is.

Could they double up the Turbos on match days I wonder (e.g. 3+2 formation)? Not sure how much slack there is in the Turbo fleet these days, though, with many of them now over at Bristol.

 

[43066]

No, that would be silly wouldn’t it! In the real world only the railway deals with increased demand by making their product unusable!

What’s your proposed solution, then, when XC are chronically short of stock and there is no ability to increase capacity in the short term?

The decisions leading to the above situation have been taken by the DfT rather than “the railway”.

 

[mangyiscute]

Could they double up the Turbos on match days I wonder (e.g. 3+2 formation)? Not sure how much slack there is in the Turbo fleet these days, though, with many of them now over at Bristol.

I'm not sure that they would fit into platform 5 at Basingstoke.
Being totally honest, there has only been one time when a train has been unboardable, which was the match against Oxford so local rivals, on all other occasions there has been people standing but it hasn't been a crush so it's been fine. The worst thing currently is the issue with the times - the trains are timed almost as unhelpfully as possible. The XC wouldn't help with this either, since they currently pass Green Park at pretty much the worst times possible as well.

 

[Towers]

What’s your proposed solution, then, when XC are chronically short of stock and there is no ability to increase capacity in the short term?

The decisions leading to the above situation have been taken by the DfT rather than “the railway”.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not suggesting it’s anyone other than the utterly hapless and incompetent DfT to blame here. And presumably it will have been they who have approved this “solution” to a problem entirely of their own making. My proposal would involve the lot of them being sent “down the road”!

Could they double up the Turbos on match days I wonder (e.g. 3+2 formation)? Not sure how much slack there is in the Turbo fleet these days, though, with many of them now over at Bristol.

If anything Green Park will be more likely to lose services on match days than gain them, along with lack of capacity on board trains there is a significant issue with overcrowding at the station itself. History suggests that the preferred solution to these issues is simply not to call there during the affected periods. It’s worth noting that Green Park exists to serve the adjacent residential development, not the football ground, and that a bus shuttle is available from Reading station which avoids the c.20 minute walk from Green Park.

 

[jayah]

If anything Green Park will be more likely to lose services on match days than gain them, along with lack of capacity on board trains there is a significant issue with overcrowding at the station itself. History suggests that the preferred solution to these issues is simply not to call there during the affected periods. It’s worth noting that Green Park exists to serve the adjacent residential development, not the football ground, and that a bus shuttle is available from Reading station which avoids the c.20 minute walk from Green Park.

It is a sign of the times this sort of nonsense has become the preferred solution. Such a solution is like self medicating with alcohol.

The number 1 thing the TOCs could do to get more people on the trains, get more revenue in the bank, improve punctuality, reduce safety risks, complaints, passenger dissatisfaction and anxiety is to pit on more carriages on these known busy routes and services.

But they can't / won't.

Sometimes the DfT are clearly responsible, but often in other cases the stock is standing in the sidings and they still won't use it.

In other news XC are spending a fortune on a new passenger counting system as part of the Class 22x refurb. I don't think that is actually required.

 

[mangyiscute]

If anything Green Park will be more likely to lose services on match days than gain them, along with lack of capacity on board trains there is a significant issue with overcrowding at the station itself. History suggests that the preferred solution to these issues is simply not to call there during the affected periods. It’s worth noting that Green Park exists to serve the adjacent residential development, not the football ground, and that a bus shuttle is available from Reading station which avoids the c.20 minute walk from Green Park.

I'd much rather walk 15 mins to the ground than pay £5.50 for a bus ticket! The train ticket is free for me since when you are already travelling by train to Reading, buying a ticket to Green Park costs the same as to Reading.

I'd also love to know what this significant overcrowding issue is - as someone who frequents the train, I have never seen any issues.

 

[RedPostJunc]

I'm not sure that they would fit into platform 5 at Basingstoke.
Being totally honest, there has only been one time when a train has been unboardable, which was the match against Oxford so local rivals, on all other occasions there has been people standing but it hasn't been a crush so it's been fine. The worst thing currently is the issue with the times - the trains are timed almost as unhelpfully as possible. The XC wouldn't help with this either, since they currently pass Green Park at pretty much the worst times possible as well.

I'd much rather walk 15 mins to the ground than pay £5.50 for a bus ticket! The train ticket is free for me since when you are already travelling by train to Reading, buying a ticket to Green Park costs the same as to Reading.

I'd also love to know what this significant overcrowding issue is - as someone who frequents the train, I have never seen any issues.

In October, I was on the 3 car Reading - Basingstoke set that stopped at Green Park after Reading 2 Portsmouth 3.
That train was seriously wedged for the rest of the journey to Basingstoke. I don't know if anyone couldn't get on.

I thought part of the business case for Green Park was that it provided a service to the football ground. Reading Football Club website has:

By rail: The nearest railway station is the Reading Green Park station, approximately 15 minutes' walk to the stadium. Alternatively, Reading Station is connected directly to major cities across the UK and many local towns. From there take the F1 (Reading Station Shuttle Service) commences 2 hours before kick-off and a minimum of 12 buses run frequently to & from the stadium, up to 1 hour 45 minutes after the final whistle.
The alternative railway station is Reading, which is connected directly to major cities across the UK and many local towns. From there, take the 50A Greenwave Park & Ride bus that takes you directly to the Stadium, with an average journey time less than 10 minutes. Alternatively, a taxi from the railway station or town centre to the Select Car Leasing Stadium should cost approximately £10.

 

[mangyiscute]

In October, I was on the 3 car Reading - Basingstoke set that stopped at Green Park after Reading 2 Portsmouth 3.
That train was seriously wedged for the rest of the journey to Basingstoke. I don't know if anyone couldn't get on.

I mean that's a unique case because Portsmouth brought thousands of fans who are obviously travelling up from the south and hence taking the train from Green Park to Basingstoke after the match. On a normal match day, I can assure you that that isn't the case and the trains are far less busy than many other comparable sports services (try taking the Piccadilly line to arsenal when they're playing), and also less crowded than your average cross country train as well currently. Furthermore, since the Reading to Reading Green Park journey is only 7 mins, there isn't much issue with a crowded train, and as mentioned before unless Reading are playing a team to the south of them, the train to Basingstoke is not going to be particularly busy.

I think this just shows the fact that people who don't regularly use a service can't understand what the conditions are like, the idea of removing the stops for matchdays is just so daft i don't even understand why anyone would come up with the idea. And while I agree that the station wasn't built primarily to serve the stadium, that was one of the clear side benefits and must increase railway revenue on these matchdays.

 

[baza585]

I mean that's a unique case because Portsmouth brought thousands of fans who are obviously travelling up from the south and hence taking the train from Green Park to Basingstoke after the match. On a normal match day, I can assure you that that isn't the case and the trains are far less busy than many other comparable sports services (try taking the Piccadilly line to arsenal when they're playing), and also less crowded than your average cross country train as well currently. Furthermore, since the Reading to Reading Green Park journey is only 7 mins, there isn't much issue with a crowded train, and as mentioned before unless Reading are playing a team to the south of them, the train to Basingstoke is not going to be particularly busy.

I think this just shows the fact that people who don't regularly use a service can't understand what the conditions are like, the idea of removing the stops for matchdays is just so daft i don't even understand why anyone would come up with the idea. And while I agree that the station wasn't built primarily to serve the stadium, that was one of the clear side benefits and must increase railway revenue on these matchdays.

Spot on.

One or two days of overcrowding per football season is no reason to change timetables.

I use XC Southampton to Reading and beyond fairly regularly during the week and it can get busy but rarely wedged before Reading, except when SWT are in chaos for some reason. From Reading northward it is generally much busier!

This whole proposal to skip Basingstoke and set down only at Winchester seems strange to me. The cynic in me wonders if DfT might want to cease XC running south of Reading altogether.......

 

[paul1609]

I mean that's a unique case because Portsmouth brought thousands of fans who are obviously travelling up from the south and hence taking the train from Green Park to Basingstoke after the match. On a normal match day, I can assure you that that isn't the case and the trains are far less busy than many other comparable sports services (try taking the Piccadilly line to arsenal when they're playing), and also less crowded than your average cross country train as well currently. Furthermore, since the Reading to Reading Green Park journey is only 7 mins, there isn't much issue with a crowded train, and as mentioned before unless Reading are playing a team to the south of them, the train to Basingstoke is not going to be particularly busy.

I think this just shows the fact that people who don't regularly use a service can't understand what the conditions are like, the idea of removing the stops for matchdays is just so daft i don't even understand why anyone would come up with the idea. And while I agree that the station wasn't built primarily to serve the stadium, that was one of the clear side benefits and must increase railway revenue on these matchdays.

You should come down to Portsmouth (Fratton) where the same TOC have insufficient rolling stock to provide more than 2 cars of the contracted 5 and quite often cancel the Cardiff service altogether when 20,000 people are leaving the football. Theres usually about 2 to 3000 people queuing in the station car park because they cant even get on to the totally inadequate and dangerous platform. Of course the 2 car dmu arrives at Fratton already packed with shoppers from Gunwharf Quays and day trippers from the Isle of Wight.

 

[nw1]

Spot on.

One or two days of overcrowding per football season is no reason to change timetables.

I use XC Southampton to Reading and beyond fairly regularly during the week and it can get busy but rarely wedged before Reading, except when SWT are in chaos for some reason. From Reading northward it is generally much busier!

This whole proposal to skip Basingstoke and set down only at Winchester seems strange to me. The cynic in me wonders if DfT might want to cease XC running south of Reading altogether.......

I do wonder about the rationale for all these stop removals: Basingstoke, partly Winchester, and Brockenhurst. They have negligible benefit but big disadvantages.

Just seems to be messing with something which has worked perfectly well for years, and misidentifies the nature of the problem with XC (clue: it's all north of Reading).

I doubt they'd withdraw XC from Southampton though. The only way they could perhaps get away with that is to, as a sweetener, introduce a half-hourly (i.e. enhanced frequency to compensate for the loss of the through service) Reading-Southampton shuttle. But even then we'd be talking about withdrawing a service which has existed, in one form or another, since steam days (admittedly not as frequently!)

 

[43066]

Just seems to be messing with something which has worked perfectly well for years, and misidentifies the nature of the problem with XC (clue: it's all north of Reading).

Has it really, though?

For the last few years Covid has suppressed passenger numbers. The last time numbers were this high XC had a bigger fleet, and presumably voyagers could be doubled up more than they can now. So I’m not sure you’re comparing like with like.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Apologies that this XC-related post is O.T.

Today's 1O24 ManPicc to Bournemouth; each of the 221 sets "misses" a carriage sequence letter:
Coaches A-B-C-D-F / Coaches G-H-I-J-L.
Why no coach letters E or K? Is that XC's normal practice?

Realtime Trains | 1O24 1525 Manchester Piccadilly to Bournemouth | 15/05/2024

Real-time train running information for 1O24 1525 departure from Manchester Piccadilly to Bournemouth on 15/05/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Towers]

The number 1 thing the TOCs could do to get more people on the trains, get more revenue in the bank, improve punctuality, reduce safety risks, complaints, passenger dissatisfaction and anxiety is to pit on more carriages on these known busy routes and services.

But they can't / won't.

Sometimes the DfT are clearly responsible, but often in other cases the stock is standing in the sidings and they still won't use it.

In other news XC are spending a fortune on a new passenger counting system as part of the Class 22x refurb. I don't think that is actually required.

The DfT control fleets, not the TOCs. If a TOC has insufficient stock that’ll be because the DfT said so. This is the modern railway!

 

[jfollows]

Apologies that this XC-related post is O.T.

Today's 1O24 ManPicc to Bournemouth; each of the 221 sets "misses" a carriage sequence letter:
Coaches A-B-C-D-F / Coaches G-H-I-J-L.
Why no coach letters E or K? Is that XC's normal practice?

Realtime Trains | 1O24 1525 Manchester Piccadilly to Bournemouth | 15/05/2024

Real-time train running information for 1O24 1525 departure from Manchester Piccadilly to Bournemouth on 15/05/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

See https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/crosscountry-xc-coaching-stock-formations.151768/
Originally to allow extra coaches to be added (triumph of hope over reality or something like that).
Virgin West Coast apparently re-lettered them to remove the gap, but not the XC franchise.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Apologies that this XC-related post is O.T.

Today's 1O24 ManPicc to Bournemouth; each of the 221 sets "misses" a carriage sequence letter:
Coaches A-B-C-D-F / Coaches G-H-I-J-L.
Why no coach letters E or K? Is that XC's normal practice?

Realtime Trains | 1O24 1525 Manchester Piccadilly to Bournemouth | 15/05/2024

Real-time train running information for 1O24 1525 departure from Manchester Piccadilly to Bournemouth on 15/05/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

This has always been the case since 220/221s were launched into passenger service.

They were designed with the intention of eventually being extended to six carriages, which never happened.

4-car sets are A C D F (G I J L)
5-car sets are A B C D F (G H I J L) letters in brackets are for when running in multiple.

Avanti ones are ABCDE/GHJKL.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Many thanks @jfollows and @voyagerdude220 - I suspected the answer woild be known to the wise folk on here.
I'm from the days of paper window stickers, with sequential letters on doors' droplights; and with no letters "intentionally" missed off.

 

[nw1]

Has it really, though?

For the last few years Covid has suppressed passenger numbers. The last time numbers were this high XC had a bigger fleet, and presumably voyagers could be doubled up more than they can now. So I’m not sure you’re comparing like with like.

But it's not good argument for lessening the service available at Brockenhurst and more importantly Winchester and Basingstoke.

As many people have observed, the worst overcrowding is north of Reading with little south thereof. The paths worked perfectly well from 2004-19 during the more intensively-worked railway of normal times.

I've yet to hear a convincing argument for the removal (or in the case of Winchester, lessening) of this provision.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Many thanks @jfollows and @voyagerdude220 - I suspected the answer woild be known to the wise folk on here.
I'm from the days of paper window stickers, with sequential letters on doors' droplights; and with no letters "intentionally" missed off.

You're very welcome. Coach B is always unreserved on services booked for 220/221s, incase a 4-car set turns up. I believe coach F is also unreserved.

 

[RedPostJunc]

You're very welcome. Coach B is always unreserved on services booked for 220/221s, incase a 4-car set turns up. I believe coach F is also unreserved.

As there are clearly capacity issues on XC services, is there no business case for building extra coaches to turn the 220s and the 4-car 221s into 5 car sets?

 

[Kite159]

As there are clearly capacity issues on XC services, is there no business case for building extra coaches to turn the 220s and the 4-car 221s into 5 car sets?

The business case for extra coaches at the current point in the life of the voyagers has been and past.

 

[mangyiscute]

the obvious and correct answer is a new fleet of 7(ish) coach bimodes, but until the government decides to fund it nothing will change

 

[Michaeco]

The problem we have is that trains on the SW Main Line and the Portsmouth Direst stop too often and, on the SW Main Line the two "fast" trains are at best semi-fasts. The service on both lines compares unfavourably with the service to similar destinations, such as Oxford and Cambridge. What is needed is a restoration of a first stop Winchester off Waterloo to Weymouth and then two semi-fasts, stopping at both Basingstoke and Woking. If a scheme could be developed to avoid splitting and joining at Southampton or Bournemouth, that would be even better (I say this as someone who has to endure this on the Victoria to Portsmouth/ Bognor Regis line for many years). X Country are to be congratulated for trying something different, now that there is less need to worry about operators abstracting revenue from each other. All this is perhaps an opportunity for an Open Access Operator?

 

[The Ham]

the obvious and correct answer is a new fleet of 7(ish) coach bimodes, but until the government decides to fund it nothing will change

It wouldn't even need to be a fleet of 7 coaches to see a significant uplift in capacity.

The lowest capacity 802 has 326 seats in 5 coaches, given that's over a 25% uplift vs the 5 coach 221's and slightly more than a 60% uplift compared to the 220's. Whilst if that resulted in no pairs of units that could be an issue, but otherwise if it resulted in the same number of units the overall capacity would be significantly better.

 

[mangyiscute]

The problem we have is that trains on the SW Main Line and the Portsmouth Direst stop too often and, on the SW Main Line the two "fast" trains are at best semi-fasts. The service on both lines compares unfavourably with the service to similar destinations, such as Oxford and Cambridge. What is needed is a restoration of a first stop Winchester off Waterloo to Weymouth and then two semi-fasts, stopping at both Basingstoke and Woking. If a scheme could be developed to avoid splitting and joining at Southampton or Bournemouth, that would be even better (I say this as someone who has to endure this on the Victoria to Portsmouth/ Bognor Regis line for many years). X Country are to be congratulated for trying something different, now that there is less need to worry about operators abstracting revenue from each other. All this is perhaps an opportunity for an Open Access Operator?

The cross country trains won't run any faster, they'll just have increased pathing times rather than stopping at the stations - no journeys will be getting faster from this change.