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Croxley Rail Link

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justinsteam

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Accourding to the Croxley Rail Link website, DfT announced on 4th February that the Croxley Rail Link scheme is in the 'Development Pool' group of projects.

If successful in the next stage, there could be LU Metropolitan Line trains running into Watford Junction by 2016.
 
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trentside

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It might actually happen one day, but it's still got to get past the funding hurdle.

Despite the fact that this has been on the cards as a potential project for years, some residents near the current Watford Met station are upset that it will be closed under the Croxley Rail Link plans. See the Watford Observer article here.
 

justinsteam

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The Croxley Rail Link has been talked about for about 20 years. I'm not sure what benefit would be gained from closing the existing Watford Met Station.
 

SS4

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The Croxley Rail Link has been talked about for about 20 years. I'm not sure what benefit would be gained from closing the existing Watford Met Station.

Wouldn't running the Met to Watford Junction allow them to close the Overground between Watford Junction and Harrow & Wealdstone/Euston and instead use run along the Met route.

I don't have figures for Watford tube station so I'm not sure how popular it is compared to the other destinations outside Greater London
 

trentside

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Removing the Overground service beyond Harrow & Wealdstone would leave several stations without any service. There were proposals at one point to re-extend the Bakerloo to Watford Junction, and divert Watford DC trains via Primrose Hill onto the NLL. Not heard anything on this for a long while though!
 

W-on-Sea

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Think the idea of diverting trains via Primrose Hill was rejected (at least for now) 2 or 3 years ago, after it was discovered that the amount of reconstruction that would be required to requadruple Camden Road-Caledonian Road made it uneconomic; plus there'd be inescapable bottlenecks at the junction immediately west of Camden Road.

IIRC this was part of the same cost-cutting round that also saw many other proposals scrapped or put on ice, including the DLR extension to Dagenham Dock, which now seems to be up for consideration again.

Agreed that you couldn't just do away with services at Carpenders Park (which is pretty remote from any other station), Hatch End or Headstone Lane if/when the Croxley link opens.
 

mr_jrt

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Just to chip in on this as I'm reasonably well-versed in these issues.

First up, the Croxley Link.

The ideal would be to finish the Metropolitan Railway's plans and extend the branch to Watford Central under the park, then under Clarendon Road up to Watford Junction, and on up the St. Albans branch. Clearly, this would be extremely expensive and disruptive, so it's been ruled out. The next best option is to divert over the old Croxley Green branch to get to Watford Junction as this only requires a new viaduct (alignment-wise, the formation still needs rebuilding to double track). They apparently looked at linking to the St. Albans branch, but have ruled it out on cost grounds. I still believe this would be extremely worthwhile, but in the interests of getting something built, I can accept it for now.

With that diversion in mind, if you want to continue to serve the existing station, you would need to split the service. Watford Met. is 15 minutes walk from Ascot Road, so is quite easy to reach for a large proportion of it's catchment area, and the other side of the catchment area is Cassiobury Park, making it even easy to justify. As a far greater proportion of passengers will want Watford High St./Junction rather than the existing station, the split will likely see something silly like 1 tph serve Watford Met., which just doesn't make sense operationally. Stabling is the elephant in the room though, as LO use Watford Junction's 4 DC line platforms for stabling already...but the Croxley project proposes the same. Should be interesting. Rebuilding Wiggenhall depot is probably out of the question, but there are disused stabling sidings between the WCML and the new lines south of Watford Junction. IIRC they were abandoned due to vandalism though...

Next up, the DC Lines.

The proposal is to remove the DC lines from Euston to a) free up a platform, and b) make the rebuild easier, c) segregate the two lines to improve reliability. Current thinking seems to be to re-extend the Bakerloo from H&W and remove the DC lines service completely, meaning Kilburn High Road and South Hampstead will be abandoned, as Bakerloo trains can turn back at Queens Park, but LO trains can't, they have to reach Willesden Junction's bay for that, and that means shared running.

Personally, I think the best solution is to extend the ELL from H&I to Watford Junction, and cut the Bakerloo back to Queens Park, then to eventually extend the tunnels to Willesden Junction as it's a major interchange.

The only major works required are to widen the Viaduct west of Camden Road for about 20m to remove the pinch point, plain line the track work, then to reinstall the DC equipment on the southern pair of lines...and bingo, fully segregated DC line from Watford Junction to West Croydon, no work whatsoever required west of South Hampstead nor east of H&I, and not using capacity at Euston. HS2's current plans to steal the Primrose Hill link to reach HS1 mean they'll be widening the viaduct to steal the southern lines anyway, so it's clearly possible, and a frequent 12tph metro service is far better use of the lines than a piddily 4 train per day HS2-HS1 link.

To be clear - there's no talk whatsoever of abandoning any stations other than Kilburn High St. or South Hampstead though.
 

swt_passenger

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The only major works required are to widen the Viaduct west of Camden Road for about 20m to remove the pinch point, plain line the track work, then to reinstall the DC equipment on the southern pair of lines...and bingo, fully segregated DC line from Watford Junction to West Croydon, no work whatsoever required west of South Hampstead nor east of H&I, and not using capacity at Euston.

What about freight though?

Can the two freight loops provided by the current NLL layout be completely removed with no impact on services?

Will there not have to be a new double crossover to allow freight from the NLL pair to reach the ELL/DC pair? The Primrose Hill lines provide an additional place for freight regulation between the NLL and WCML - where will that be re-provided?

Clearly your proposals are fine in the absence of freight, but it isn't going to go away that quickly...
 

mr_jrt

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Quite true. ...but I have always felt that freight has no place in the centre on one of the most important cities on the planet unless it's actually destined for there.

Failing that bit of rationalism, If you removed the remaining hunk of platform at Primrose Hill, I'm confident you could fit 4 lines through it with a new centre platform. This would provide loops. Additionally, if you extended the Bakerloo tunnels, then the land around Queens park becomes available for new freight loops. The next alternative is to route everything via the Goblin. The final alternative is to build the various infrastructure that enables freight to divert around London - things like the proposed chord at Redhill.
 

jopsuk

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Quite true. ...but I have always felt that freight has no place in the centre on one of the most important cities on the planet unless it's actually destined for there.

too true- ideally, freight would route via some sort of orbital in the m25 area.
 
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