CT 170 on Cambrian Line?

[LM 170]

I am well aware that back in Central Trains days on Cambrian Line that you could catch class 150s,153s,156s and 158s. But no one ever ruled it out if a class 170 ever made a journey on the line can anyone set the record straight please thank you.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I am well aware that back in Central Trains days on Cambrian Line that you could catch class 150s,153s,156s and 158s. But no one ever ruled it out if a class 170 ever made a journey on the line can anyone set the record straight please thank you.

CT introduced them in summer 2000 on Cambrian Mainline did not go up coast, 2 trains had them 1 key morning departure was 3 car and and a 2 car came down in day and back as well before the 3 car ran down in evening ready for next day. Would have to go tt digging to tell you exact times.

Of course things went backwards when the Wales and Border franchise was created.

 

[LM 170]

CT introduced them in summer 2000 on Cambrian Mainline did not go up coast, 2 trains had them 1 key morning departure was 3 car and and a 2 car came down in day and back as well before the 3 car ran down in evening ready for next day. Would have to go tt digging to tell you exact times.

Of course things went backwards when the Wales and Border franchise was created.

thanks for info very helpful.

 

[SherpaPhil]

we had a 170 booked on the 09.30 ish to Aber but it didn't last long as the NRN radio's wouldn't work with the RETB correctly, use to get hacked off writing RETB tickets all the time !

 

[Gareth Marston]

we had a 170 booked on the 09.30 ish to Aber but it didn't last long as the NRN radio's wouldn't work with the RETB correctly, use to get hacked off writing RETB tickets all the time !

Yeah I can remember there were issues and that they were got over just in time for the 170's to be taken away to create the magical Wales and border franchise.

 

[SherpaPhil]

they never fixed the radio's, they banned us from taking them on the Cambrian in the end

 

[anthony263]

I wonder could it be possible if some class 170's become available from Crosscountry in the future to have them fitted with the ERTMS equipment to allow them to possible work along the Cambrian route?

 

[Gareth Marston]

I wonder could it be possible if some class 170's become available from Crosscountry in the future to have them fitted with the ERTMS equipment to allow them to possible work along the Cambrian route?

The big lesson from the Cambrian pilot is do not stick etcs in units not designed for it if at all possible. You have to hack the units up there's so much kit which is really surprising given modern technology.

Ideally when it rolls out you stick it in new stock that's designed for it, but as ordering brand new fleets and completely resignalling a route which in all probability is not self contained it seems unlikely that roll out will be smooth.

 

[merlodlliw]

170s were used by Central Trains between Chester & Shrewsbury via Wrexham,what a change to board a brand new train on our line,alas the Wales & Borders franchise soon returned the line to clapped out stock.

 

[SherpaPhil]

The main problem will be that ERTMS takes alot of power to run on the trains & no unit is built with extra horse power that is not used, the 158's were going to have a small alternator fitted just for ERTMS but it never happened, so any unit will be slighty below par

 

[edwin_m]

The 170s are going to be around for a couple of decades yet. Surely it is pretty much inevitable that some will need to be fitted with ERTMS during that period? If extra power is needed that probably just makes it take even longer for them to get to 100mph.

 

[anthony263]

There may be some class 170's available if Crosscountry ever decides to use class 220/221 voyagers on routes where they use the class 170's now. That is if any class 220/221's get displaced from other services by new rolling stock.

The class 170's I have travelled on dont seem to be too bad in means of acceleration although not as good as their class 172 cousins.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The lifespan of the 158's is expected to be 30 to 35 years so were talking 2022 to 2027 for replacement. Now if there was a coherent cascade plan following CP5 electrification and we knew what the CP6 plans were...but this long term planning seems absent.

The Cambrian will remain a diesel island even if we have several control periods of wires going up eventually the current dmus will be life expired and some new rural dmus will have to be built for Cambrian and other remaining pockets. Will converting 170s for 10 years be cost effective or will new build be better?

 

[PHILIPE]

There is no reason to go to the expense of fitting 170s or any other class with ERTMS as there are enough 158s with a good life expectancy yet available for the Cambrian. Perhaps in the future when 158 replacements are required a new build class could be introduced with ERTMS built in. But, at the mement, no reason for 170s to be fitted and wotk Cambrian.

 

[Gareth Marston]

There is no reason to go to the expense of fitting 170s or any other class with ERTMS as there are enough 158s with a good life expectancy yet available for the Cambrian. Perhaps in the future when 158 replacements are required a new build class could be introduced with ERTMS built in. But, at the mement, no reason for 170s to be fitted and wotk Cambrian.

There's near on 10 years before crunch time but it does have to be planned in advance and we all know how slow things can be.

 

[edwin_m]

Don't forget that the Cambrian isn't going to be the only ERTMS-fitted line for ever! Unless something goes very wrong technically or costwise, there will be many other ERTMS routes during the remaining life of the 170s.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I wonder could it be possible if some class 170's become available from Crosscountry in the future to have them fitted with the ERTMS equipment to allow them to possible work along the Cambrian route?

Even if you fit ERTMS, class 170s would not be appropriate for the Cambrian line in my opinion. The 158s may be older, but they are better. They have corridors between units for the Cambrian Coast portion working and the door layout allows more seats/tables/legroom compared to the suburban door layout on the class 170. The only thing better than 158s for the Cambrian would be 159s, in my opinion.

The lifespan of the 158's is expected to be 30 to 35 years so were talking 2022 to 2027 for replacement. Now if there was a coherent cascade plan following CP5 electrification and we knew what the CP6 plans were...but this long term planning seems absent.

I think the 158s will need to last longer than that. 150s and Pacers must be getting near 30 years old now yet the blanket "won't buy any more DMUs" is being applied. I agree that we really need to know the CP6 plans. The only pepole who are buying DMUs, DfT, may find that they have their shiny new IEP train bi-modes running on routes which would otherwise be priority 1 for CP6 electrification. On another topic it sounds like Hull Trains might even get wires up within CP5 somehow (who's going to do that though? there's enough wiring work to fill CP5 already).

 

[Gareth Marston]

Even if you fit ERTMS, class 170s would not be appropriate for the Cambrian line in my opinion. The 158s may be older, but they are better. They have corridors between units for the Cambrian Coast portion working and the door layout allows more seats/tables/legroom compared to the suburban door layout on the class 170. The only thing better than 158s for the Cambrian would be 159s, in my opinion.

I think the 158s will need to last longer than that. 150s and Pacers must be getting near 30 years old now yet the blanket "won't buy any more DMUs" is being applied. I agree that we really need to know the CP6 plans. The only pepole who are buying DMUs, DfT, may find that they have their shiny new IEP train bi-modes running on routes which would otherwise be priority 1 for CP6 electrification. On another topic it sounds like Hull Trains might even get wires up within CP5 somehow (who's going to do that though? there's enough wiring work to fill CP5 already).

The portion working is more a product of lack of rolling stock, in the winter months the coast portions can be down to single figures but you need the seats for newtown, Welshpool etc a lot of regulars decamp from Aber portion at Mach knowing theres more room up front.

One third two third doors and better acceleration are probably more use on coast most of time anyway, lot of small flows and plentiful stops, dwell times a pain.

Ideally perhaps you,d have 2 or 3 trains a day with portions and rest of day 2 or 3 car 170's west of salop would do job.

 

[Rhydgaled]

The portion working is more a product of lack of rolling stock, in the winter months the coast portions can be down to single figures but you need the seats for newtown, Welshpool etc a lot of regulars decamp from Aber portion at Mach knowing theres more room up front.

One third two third doors and better acceleration are probably more use on coast most of time anyway, lot of small flows and plentiful stops, dwell times a pain.

Ideally perhaps you,d have 2 or 3 trains a day with portions and rest of day 2 or 3 car 170's west of salop would do job.

Oh yeah, stock with a suburban door arrangment and good acceleration (the latter of which, I am told by others on here, is not a feature of a class 170, which is why I think of 170s as a big mistake) would probably be better on the Cambrian coast, but not on the Cambrian main line. You'd need an isolated fleet confined to just the coast workings (in which case you only need a 75mph top speed also), which I imagine would be a pain for maintenance. The main line needs 3 or 4 coach 158/159 formations from Machynlleth east every two hours (might get away with 2-car in the other hours if/when the hourly service finally arrives), so you might as well use portion working with the coast as it can't really have it's own isolated fleet.

 

[anthony263]

Some of the crosscountry class 170's I have travelled on between Cardiff & Newport seemed to accelerate a lot more quickly than the class 158's I have traveled on along that stretch.

 

[quarella]

170s were used by Central Trains between Chester & Shrewsbury via Wrexham,what a change to board a brand new train on our line,alas the Wales & Borders franchise soon returned the line to clapped out stock.

I know I shouldn't bite but can I ask what Wales and Borders should have done? They weren't allocated any 170s. The newest stock allocated to them was the 158s and as I recall the ex Central Trains ones were to put it mildly rather care worn.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I know I shouldn't bite but can I ask what Wales and Borders should have done? They weren't allocated any 170s. The newest stock allocated to them was the 158s and as I recall the ex Central Trains ones were to put it mildly rather care worn.

As everyone who was on the ex CT lines that went to Wales and Borders knows the quality of the service nose dived as soon as the decision to create the franchise was made. There a lot of resentment to this day as we never asked for the Wales and border franchise.

 

[quarella]

As everyone who was on the ex CT lines that went to Wales and Borders knows the quality of the service nose dived as soon as the decision to create the franchise was made. There a lot of resentment to this day as we never asked for the Wales and border franchise.

In some quarters the feeling is mutual.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The article is inaccurate the consultation hasn't started yet but has pic of 170 on Cambrian nice to see the itv pic library is up to date!

http://www.itv.com/news/central/201...in-rail-services-between-wales-and-birmingam/

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

The article is inaccurate the consultation hasn't started yet but has pic of 170 on Cambrian nice to see the itv pic library is up to date!

http://www.itv.com/news/central/201...in-rail-services-between-wales-and-birmingam/

Surprising - or not surprising - how many inaccuracies like this pic are seen in the media!

 

[Eagle]

At least it's the right line, and not just a generic picture of a train.

And the news article didn't once mention the word "commuters", which is quite rare for a rail article in the media nowadays.

 

[Gareth Marston]

At least it's the right line, and not just a generic picture of a train.

And the news article didn't once mention the word "commuters", which is quite rare for a rail article in the media nowadays.

About 10 percent of the footfall at Aberystwyth are commuters theres 3 arrivals in the morning peak from Borth and Mach however theres only one departure in the evening peak which limits options and suppresses demand.

 

[merlodlliw]

In a Statement the Welsh Government transport minister Edwina Hart said:

I am committed to improving transport services in mid-Wales.

In terms of the Cambrian Main Line hourly service, the way is clear for an operator to introduce additional services, though it is important to be mindful of the tough financial settlement we are facing.

The minister added she was looking at the possibility of introducing an increased number of trains on a trial basis next summer.

1.ATW wont add any services without payment, is she meaning post ATW?
2.Where will the extra trains come from for a trial & will she pay out of the revenue account.

 

[Gareth Marston]

1.ATW wont add any services without payment, is she meaning post ATW?
2.Where will the extra trains come from for a trial & will she pay out of the revenue account.

The Wrexham re double is linked into the Cambrian in that improved connections between the two lines have always been promised off the back of it and that the Cardiff to holyheads would need one less unit in that diagram allowing some shuffling of their long distance stock.

It's a good question however if the survey produces the same result as those of us on the ground know is the answer from mid Wales and the Minister says yes ATW will be under a lot of pressure to deliver. That 158 on the Ebbw vale branch really gets on my nerves!

 

[anthony263]

I agree that 158 would be better off elsewhere rather than working the Ebbw Vale branch.

I do hope we get some good news over the Wrexham re-doubling and it does get the go ahead