curious question: Could a TGV duplex set make it to St Pancras?

[Prestige15]

For what I understand, Any passenger trains uning the channel tunnel need to be long enough and able to spit in an even of emergency and concidering HS1 gauge is already european standard, so to me it means a double decker train can fit in. I'm curious to know if a double TGV duplex sets can make it to London?

Double sets are roughly the same lenght as the Eurostar set and can uncoupled or one set powering the other and although their doors are lower than UK platforms meaning passengers would have to step down to enter the train however some TGV trains already does that in Spain and Germany.

Would be interesting to see them on british ground.

For those who dosent know what a TGV Duplex is, here you go, enjoy the motor sound, No doubt they certainally makes the right noise.

 

[LLivery]

I believe they can, HS1 is a French LGV in all but name. And I think I'm right in saying the platform heights are different on the Int'l platforms from HS1 domestic. I wouldn't be surprised if speculative operators opt for double deck sets to be as competitive with fares as possible (Channel Tunnel pricing per passenger, rather than train, noted)

The length can just be two trains coupled, rather than one set* being splittable like the current stock

*technically two sets joined together

 

[swt_passenger]

For what I understand, Any passenger trains uning the channel tunnel need to be long enough and able to spit in an even of emergency and concidering HS1 gauge is already european standard, so to me it means a double decker train can fit in. I'm curious to know if a double TGV duplex sets can make it to London?

The requirements to be able to split, and to span the length of two emergency passageways, were taken out of the operating rules a while ago, before the 374s entered service. The original north of London sets never met the length requirement anyway.

 

[43096]

The requirements to be able to split, and to span the length of two emergency passageways, were taken out of the operating rules a while ago, before the 374s entered service. The original north of London sets never met the length requirement anyway.

I would not be at all surprised if Eurostar’s upcoming order is for standard length (8 or 9 trailers) double-deck TGV-M derivatives.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Trains need a special pantograph to cope with the catenary height in the Channel Tunnel (set high for the Getlink shuttle trains).
Does a TGV Duplex need the longer pantograph?
Then there are the fire protection rules in the tunnel, requiring upgraded interior materials.
Can it also cope with the "last mile" into St Pancras with its UK-pattern signalling?

 

[martin2345uk]

Not sure how their pantographs would cope with the ~5.92m wire height in the tunnel but the last bit into St Pancras just uses KVB as far as I understand it so they should be okay with that...

 

[zwk500]

Then there are the fire protection rules in the tunnel, requiring upgraded interior materials.

I believe the tunnel fire rules are now aligned with EU interoperability standards for other long tunnels (e.g. Alpine tunnels) so this may not be impossible.

Can it also cope with the "last mile" into St Pancras with its UK-pattern signalling?

St Pancras is fitted with KVB so as long as the driver knows the aspects a TGV would be fine.

IIRC the TGV La Poste and ICE sets that have reached St Pancras were hauled through the tunnel, did they get hauled all the way in or were they allowed to pan up at some point?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

IIRC the TGV La Poste and ICE sets that have reached St Pancras were hauled through the tunnel, did they get hauled all the way in or were they allowed to pan up at some point?

They were hauled all the way from Frethun, I believe - I think they hooked up the Eurotunnel locomotives at Dolland's Moor after a 92(?) hauled them through the tunnel.

 

[MarkyT]

Not sure how their pantographs would cope with the ~5.92m wire height in the tunnel but the last bit into St Pancras just uses KVB as far as I understand it so they should be okay with that...

KVB applies through the international platforms at Ashford too, not that anything has stopped there in public service for a while. The continental platforms are 760mm in height today. The French standard is 550mm, hence the step down into the bi-level trains in Germany and Spain at 760mm platforms.

 

[MotCO]

Not sure how their pantographs would cope with the ~5.92m wire height in the tunnel but the last bit into St Pancras just uses KVB as far as I understand it so they should be okay with that...

Presumably there could be special driving units fore and aft which need not be duplex, which have a pantograph which could reach the catenary.

 

[MarkyT]

Presumably there could be special driving units fore and aft which need not be duplex, which have a pantograph which could reach the catenary.

A subfleet retrofitted with higher-reach pantographs could be used if necessary. Eurostar trains of both existing types have examples that can reach the wires clearly. I don't think the duplex power cars are materially much different to other TGV-type units, just having a fairing at the back to better match the larger carriages.

 

[Prestige15]

Trains need a special pantograph to cope with the catenary height in the Channel Tunnel (set high for the Getlink shuttle trains).
Does a TGV Duplex need the longer pantograph?
Then there are the fire protection rules in the tunnel, requiring upgraded interior materials.
Can it also cope with the "last mile" into St Pancras with its UK-pattern signalling?

Apparently, Eurostars pantographs are the same as TGV reseau sets so could imaging it can do the sme job, In term of signalling, I would think so, Most TGV's set have Dutch, German and Italian sinalling ststems in one cab so im sure having a UK signalling on the sets that dosent have multiple signalling system would bite

 

[zwk500]

In term of signalling, I would think so, Most TGV's set have Dutch, German and Italian sinalling ststems in one cab so im sure having a UK signalling on the sets that dosent have multiple signalling system would bite

As mentioned before, HS1 has KVB fitted so it's not a problem at all for French units. Although nowadays with the ETCS DMI and adaptive displays AWS and TPWS in-cab display shouldn't be a problem, although there is still the question of the under-train equipment, but that did fit on a 373.

 

[Snow1964]

There are multiple types of TGV Duplex

The original ones (originally called TGV2N where N is French word for levels), 89 sets were built numbered 201-289

Then 19 regional sets (Reseau), where new multi system power cars were swapped with older single level regional power cars (and the 38 new Duplex power cars operate with older single level stock from mid 1990s)

Then 52 sets known as Dasye which have asynchronous motors (like Eurostar 373s) and also ERTMS. Most of these have been reseated to higher density Ouigo spec

EuroDuplex, similar power cars to Dasye, but improved trailer cars, 93 sets 801-893

EuroDuplex tri-voltage 30 sets with German 15kv 16.7hz numbered 4701-4730

TGV-M (also known by Alstom name Avelia Horizon), the power cars on these are about 4m shorter, and intermediate vehicles about metre shorter, so there are 9 trailers instead of 8. Might be distributed power. 115 sets are on order with first now being delivered, due to enter service from 2025, with delivery until early 2030s

 

[Prestige15]

There are multiple types of TGV Duplex

The original ones (originally called TGV2N where N is French word for levels), 89 sets were built numbered 201-289

Then 19 regional sets (Reseau), where new multi system power cars were swapped with older single level regional power cars (and the 38 new Duplex power cars operate with older single level stock from mid 1990s)

Then 52 sets known as Dasye which have asynchronous motors (like Eurostar 373s) and also ERTMS. Most of these have been reseated to higher density Ouigo spec

EuroDuplex, similar power cars to Dasye, but improved trailer cars, 93 sets 801-893

EuroDuplex tri-voltage 30 sets with German 15kv 16.7hz numbered 4701-4730

TGV-M (also known by Alstom name Avelia Horizon), the power cars on these are about 4m shorter, and intermediate vehicles about metre shorter, so there are 9 trailers instead of 8. Strictly these are not trailers as there is distributed power. 115 sets are on order with first now being delivered, due to enter service from 2025, with delivery until early 2030s

The only way to know which mode they are in is by looking at the pantograph.

 

[MarkyT]

TGV-M (also known by Alstom name Avelia Horizon), the power cars on these are about 4m shorter, and intermediate vehicles about metre shorter, so there are 9 trailers instead of 8. Strictly these are not trailers as there is distributed power. 115 sets are on order with first now being delivered, due to enter service from 2025, with delivery until early 2030s

As far as I know, there are no powered axles under the passenger cars on the TGV-M examples ordered so far by SNCF, but the modular concept could allow some of the intermediate articulated bogies to be powered in the same way as Alstom's AGV design to achieve higher performance, if desired. The continued concentration of the traction equipment in the end power cars is part of the cost, weight and complexity saving demanded by the customer. The Amtrak Avelia Liberty variant for the USA has the same design of end power cars but the sandwich unpowered single level tilting cars.