Dartmouth Steam Railway

[SwindonManor]

This is one of my favourite lines. It has beautiful scenery and amazing engines but it's not a heritage railway in my opinion. It's part of a business and because of the business working, trains now skip all the stations on the line? It doesn't seem like they are caring for heritage, it just seems they have found a money maker. Please post opinions on this I would love to hear them.

 

[bramling]

This is one of my favourite lines. It has beautiful scenery and amazing engines but it's not a heritage railway in my opinion. It's part of a business and because of the business working, trains now skip all the stations on the line? It doesn't seem like they are caring for heritage, it just seems they have found a money maker. Please post opinions on this I would love to hear them.

The Dartmouth railway has always been an outlier in terms of being more of a business venture than a true preserved railway, and has never really claimed to be anything different.

That said, I do find the effective closure of the intermediate stations rather regrettable. Seems to be another of those negative things that we’re left with off the back of Covid. Essentially they have found they can fill their trains with end-to-end journeys, so serving the intermediate stations seems to be regarded as an unnecessary complication.

 

[SwindonManor]

Yeah true but like I said they are a business and it just isn't a normal steam railway you would see

I must say though a railway near to that I do enjoy very much is Plym Valley Railway it has a special feel and the volunteers are very nice again general comparison to it is also welcome

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

I would nationalise the line, make it part of the national network and operate it as an extension of the 'Devon Metro'. It could play an important part in the transport of the area - the whole Torbay area is infested with diabolical traffic all year round. The railway had a cracking deal when BR flogged it off for a song - it included the Royal Dart Hotel and the Paignton Picture House. The heritage appeal is limited in my view - an ugly station at Paignton, the blot at Churston and tatty rolling stock.

 

[fgwrich]

The Dartmouth railway has always been an outlier in terms of being more of a business venture than a true preserved railway, and has never really claimed to be anything different.

That said, I do find the effective closure of the intermediate stations rather regrettable. Seems to be another of those negative things that we’re left with off the back of Covid. Essentially they have found they can fill their trains with end-to-end journeys, so serving the intermediate stations seems to be regarded as an unnecessary complication.

Indeed, and likewise for concentrating everything on Churston which makes it feel a little bit of a dumping ground on the line - Ideal perhaps for a heritage bus connection to Brixham?

I would nationalise the line, make it part of the national network and operate it as an extension of the 'Devon Metro'. It could play an important part in the transport of the area - the whole Torbay area is infested with diabolical traffic all year round. The railway had a cracking deal when BR flogged it off for a song - it included the Royal Dart Hotel and the Paignton Picture House. The heritage appeal is limited in my view - an ugly station at Paignton, the blot at Churston and tatty rolling stock.

Possibly, I really would love to see so much more done with the line. Perhaps anything from a more frequent DMU operated service (LSL does of course at least have a 121) to a far more frequent service that actually goes into the evening. It's always been a little disappointing with their somewhat relaxed timetable and early finish that an evening out in Kingswear / Dartmouth is only really possible by either bus or driving.

 

[Belperpete]

Any preserved railway that doesn't operate as a business is doomed to failure, sooner or later. The difference with the Dartmouth is that they don't feel the need for volunteers. However, they are far from being the only preserved railway that operates without volunteers (Snowdon Mountain and Llanberis Lake spring to mind).

The reason that they don't operate evening services is most likely because they don't think they would be profitable. Again, any preserved railway that runs services at a loss is going to run into trouble sooner or later (the NYMR springs to mind). Many preserved railways have had to cut their services since COVID.

 

[Revilo]

I would nationalise the line, make it part of the national network and operate it as an extension of the 'Devon Metro'. It could play an important part in the transport of the area - the whole Torbay area is infested with diabolical traffic all year round. The railway had a cracking deal when BR flogged it off for a song - it included the Royal Dart Hotel and the Paignton Picture House. The heritage appeal is limited in my view - an ugly station at Paignton, the blot at Churston and tatty rolling stock.

How much would nationalisation cost? Could that money be better spent?

 

[Ashley Hill]

I do feel they have become a one trick pony,ferrying fare paying tourists up and down behind a steam train in a wide captive area. Many years ago under a different general manager many excellent diesel galas were held. These were very popular with enthusiasts and are sadly missed. With Hosking now on the board I’m surprised that an event with some of his locos hasn’t been organised.

 

[D Williams]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. The PDSR is a conduit to get passengers to the boats at Kingswear. That's where the money is. The entrance / booking hall at Paignton reminded me of Wookey Hole i.e. cheap and tacky. The train operation is slick and the staff had the same approach to customer service as BR in the 1960's . Nevertheless I found it quite amusing as a sort of throwback to past times. Definitely not an enthusiast's railway and should not be viewed as such. Also the company ( trains, boats and buses) turns in a profit and pays dividends. More than can be said about most railways. Why would a company go to the trouble of running diesel / steam galas if the main income is from ordinary punters. It doesn't need the volunteer input / bailouts from enthusiasts that keeps most heritage railways heads ( just) above water so there's no need to foster support by running enthusiasts days.

 

[Belperpete]

I do feel they have become a one trick pony,ferrying fare paying tourists up and down behind a steam train in a wide captive area. Many years ago under a different general manager many excellent diesel galas were held. These were very popular with enthusiasts and are sadly missed. With Hosking now on the board I’m surprised that an event with some of his locos hasn’t been organised.

A gala requires a LOT of organising. With a railway where all the staff are paid, that would require paying for. Assuming that the paid staff have sufficient free time in their existing workloads, or are prepared to put in the paid overtime necessary.

 

[SwindonManor]

Wow this has a lot of posts and I have to say I get the point about galas but they are in their form of business. I am now hearing lots of 'Devon Metro' and nationalisation theorys and i love the line and know it back to front but it could be more use to communities if it went to Kingswear as NR. They already have a through ticket but not a running GWR train there. I would make it half and half so GWR to Goodrington like a park and ride or Churston to meet halfway and DSR still have steam trains but not in the way they do now

 

[Iskra]

There have been a number of visiting railtours and some diesel events in recent years, so it’s not like they don’t engage with enthusiasts at all. I concur with those saying if it isn’t broken don’t fix it.

Personally, I enjoyed my one visit to the line and thought it cracking; the scenery is very pleasant, particularly the approach to Kingwear and the GWR steam locomotive had to work impressively hard to haul the train back up to Paignton.

 

[SwindonManor]

There have been a number of visiting railtours and some diesel events in recent years, so it’s not like they don’t engage with enthusiasts at all. I concur with those saying if it isn’t broken don’t fix it.

Personally, I enjoyed my one visit to the line and thought it cracking; the scenery is very pleasant, particularly the approach to Kingwear and the GWR steam locomotive had to work impressively hard to haul the train back up to Paignton.

Like I said opinions very welcome and the railtours get the enthusiasts happy *including me* and it does do what it needs to do, that's making money and running trains.

Any preserved railway that doesn't operate as a business is doomed to failure, sooner or later. The difference with the Dartmouth is that they don't feel the need for volunteers. However, they are far from being the only preserved railway that operates without volunteers (Snowdon Mountain and Llanberis Lake spring to mind).

The reason that they don't operate evening services is most likely because they don't think they would be profitable. Again, any preserved railway that runs services at a loss is going to run into trouble sooner or later (the NYMR springs to mind). Many preserved railways have had to cut their services since COVID.

Of course Covid is a big factor and funding is a giant issue on heritage railways country-wide sadly

 

[Teds]

In view of the comments about being a railway that targets the day trip market, how long will it be before the steam service is replaced by diesel locos and the steam locos only come out on special days? It is a very scenic route to travel. For the journey, it makes little difference what the motive power is provided that you are travelling in a hauled coach. It is still possible to create a lot of the ambiance of earlier times by the rolling stock that you use and the way it is presented. The product would still be distinct from a modern train - most of which are dmus or emus - and still have the scenery.

 

[Iskra]

In view of the comments about being a railway that targets the day trip market, how long will it be before the steam service is replaced by diesel locos and the steam locos only come out on special days? It is a very scenic route to travel. For the journey, it makes little difference what the motive power is provided that you are travelling in a hauled coach. It is still possible to create a lot of the ambiance of earlier times by the rolling stock that you use and the way it is presented. The product would still be distinct from a modern train - most of which are dmus or emus - and still have the scenery.

I wholeheartedly disagree; the vast majority of the general public wants steam locomotives on a preserved railway, and emotions can run high when steam is replaced by diesel.

 

[bramling]

I wholeheartedly disagree; the vast majority of the general public wants steam locomotives on a preserved railway, and emotions can run high when steam is replaced by diesel.

I’ve never really understood this, as once on the train there’s little if any perceptible difference, and I see little evidence that the average punter enjoys listening to the specific sound of steam judging by how it’s only enthusiasts rather than the general public who tend to open windows.

But certainly agree that people seem to want to say “I travelled on a steam train”, and in the case of Dartmouth they do heavily promote the steam aspect. So in this case I don’t think diesel would work well.

It’s always been the case that for enthusiasts there’s the South Devon Railway just down the road, which offers an experience more akin to your average preserved railway.

That said, I’d love the prospect of a diesel journey on the Dartmouth Railway. Even something like a Thumper would be very evocative, if not particularly prototypical.

 

[Iskra]

I’ve never really understood this, as once on the train there’s little if any perceptible difference, and I see little evidence that the average punter enjoys listening to the specific sound of steam judging by how it’s only enthusiasts rather than the general public who tend to open windows.

But certainly agree that people seem to want to say “I travelled on a steam train”, and in the case of Dartmouth they do heavily promote the steam aspect. So in this case I don’t think diesel would work well.

It’s always been the case that for enthusiasts there’s the South Devon Railway just down the road, which offers an experience more akin to your average preserved railway.

That said, I’d love the prospect of a diesel journey on the Dartmouth Railway. Even something like a Thumper would be very evocative, if not particularly prototypical.

I agree, but I remember being disappointed by diesels as a child, whereas now I’ll happily ride behind pretty much anything. I think they possibly require a little more understanding to appreciate and are less photogenic/‘instagramable.’ Personally, I think it’s more about how hard a loco works for me rather than the type of loco, plus the scenery, catering and overall appeal of a line, but I’m far from the average customer. I think most heritage railways need to appeal to as broad an audience as possible and most seem to do fairly well at that.

 

[Falcon1200]

Why would a company go to the trouble of running diesel / steam galas if the main income is from ordinary punters. It doesn't need the volunteer input / bailouts from enthusiasts that keeps most heritage railways heads ( just) above water so there's no need to foster support by running enthusiasts days.

Running Galas outside the holiday/tourist periods would surely provide increased traffic and revenue at otherwise quiet times - Sweat the assets!

I wholeheartedly disagree; the vast majority of the general public wants steam locomotives on a preserved railway, and emotions can run high when steam is replaced by diesel.

I disagree also, the steam locos are a major attraction; At my last visit to the Railway they actually posed the loco (a Manor) for a few minutes while running round for the passengers to take photos! I doubt a diesel would be anything like as interesting to them.

 

[D Williams]

As a comparison, given that it's operational ethos is similar to the DSR , would the Haverthwaite and Lakeside be considered an "enthusiast's railway"?

 

[bramling]

As a comparison, given that it's operational ethos is similar to the DSR , would the Haverthwaite and Lakeside be considered an "enthusiast's railway"?

No it isn’t, but there is slightly more of a heritage scene at Haverthwaite than on the Dartmouth railway.

In essence anything that happens to be heritage at Dartmouth is more by coincidence, whereas Haverthwaite do seem to want to keep their railway reasonably authentic.

 

[Belperpete]

In view of the comments about being a railway that targets the day trip market, how long will it be before the steam service is replaced by diesel locos and the steam locos only come out on special days? It is a very scenic route to travel. For the journey, it makes little difference what the motive power is provided that you are travelling in a hauled coach. It is still possible to create a lot of the ambiance of earlier times by the rolling stock that you use and the way it is presented. The product would still be distinct from a modern train - most of which are dmus or emus - and still have the scenery.

Like the Snowdon Mountain Rly you mean? Seems to attract more than enough passengers with a mainly diesel service.

I suspect that as coal becomes harder to source, and significantly more expensive, many preserved railways will increasingly be turning to diesels for their mainstream operations.

 

[Iskra]

As a comparison, given that it's operational ethos is similar to the DSR , would the Haverthwaite and Lakeside be considered an "enthusiast's railway"?

No, it’s very similar to the DSR in many ways, but just like the DSR they do the odd event aimed at enthusiasts, which is enough really, and despite that it’s still an excellent railway for its size.

 

[paul1609]

Like the Snowdon Mountain Rly you mean? Seems to attract more than enough passengers with a mainly diesel service.

I suspect that as coal becomes harder to source, and significantly more expensive, many preserved railways will increasingly be turning to diesels for their mainstream operations.

Id say that the Snowdown Railway is very much a one off the traction type is very much secondary to the mountain and the fact that its the only uk cog railway.
Theres nothing that I can see changed in that the overwhelming desire of a heritage railway customer is for steam haulage. The Diesel interest is by and large limited to a very small number of enthusiasts. I dont see many railways turning to Diesel Haulage to be honest.

 

[Belperpete]

While I agree that steam attracts more people than diesel, it will come down to simple economics, as coal becomes increasingly expensive. Enthusiasts may want steam, but are they prepared to pay for it? See the NYMR thread, for example, where there are complaints about the cost of a ticket.

I think that very few people visit the SMR because of its cogs! And there are plenty of visitors on days when the visibility is poor. The main attraction is the train ride. And patently they are not put off by the lack of steam haulage. I would say that the steam interest is the minority, the public just want a train ride.

 

[Iskra]

While I agree that steam attracts more people than diesel, it will come down to simple economics, as coal becomes increasingly expensive. Enthusiasts may want steam, but are they prepared to pay for it? See the NYMR thread, for example, where there are complaints about the cost of a ticket.

I think that very few people visit the SMR because of its cogs! And there are plenty of visitors on days when the visibility is poor. The main attraction is the train ride. And patently they are not put off by the lack of steam haulage. I would say that the steam interest is the minority, the public just want a train ride.

I believe people are willing to pay for steam, and pretty much always will be. And it’s not like the price of diesel doesn’t fluctuate either.

People go to the SMR for the mountain itself, the photo at the top and the views if they’re lucky. As the vast majority pre-book it, the weather isn’t a relevant factor when people make the decision to travel. It’s a tourist attraction in its own right, regardless of traction. I’ve hiked it twice in recent years and the top wasn’t full of diesel bashers, and hikers weren’t stopping to film the diesel trains, but they were the steam… Steam is decisive, name a regular heritage railway that’s always busy that doesn’t have steam…

 

[Falcon1200]

I would say that the steam interest is the minority, the public just want a train ride.

I would say that in the case of the SMR the mountain is by far the main attraction, the railway just happens to be the means of getting there. The SMR is a very different operation to every UK heritage railway, none of which has a massive peak to attract visitors, whereas steam traction offers something novel.

 

[bramling]

Like the Snowdon Mountain Rly you mean? Seems to attract more than enough passengers with a mainly diesel service.

While I agree that steam attracts more people than diesel, it will come down to simple economics, as coal becomes increasingly expensive. Enthusiasts may want steam, but are they prepared to pay for it? See the NYMR thread, for example, where there are complaints about the cost of a ticket.

I think that very few people visit the SMR because of its cogs! And there are plenty of visitors on days when the visibility is poor. The main attraction is the train ride. And patently they are not put off by the lack of steam haulage. I would say that the steam interest is the minority, the public just want a train ride.

Not sure Snowdon can really be compared with anything else. A good proportion of people will be using it simply to “go up Snowdon”, either so they can walk down, enjoy the views, or just be able to say they’ve been to the summit.

In essence I don’t think it would matter what traction Snowdon offered, people would still do the trip.

Whether that applies elsewhere is debatable, but certainly those railways which can’t offer anything special beyond the train ride will find themselves in stiff competition against other local attractions.

Personally I don’t fully get the thing about steam, indeed I find it borders on irrational, but it certainly exists. For some reason people feel shortchanged if a diesel turns up.

I guess feeling shortchanged is just one of those strange human traits.

 

[Belperpete]

I believe people are willing to pay for steam, and pretty much always will be. And it’s not like the price of diesel doesn’t fluctuate either.

People go to the SMR for the mountain itself, the photo at the top and the views if they’re lucky. As the vast majority pre-book it, the weather isn’t a relevant factor when people make the decision to travel. It’s a tourist attraction in its own right, regardless of traction. I’ve hiked it twice in recent years and the top wasn’t full of diesel bashers, and hikers weren’t stopping to film the diesel trains, but they were the steam… Steam is decisive, name a regular heritage railway that’s always busy that doesn’t have steam…

Err, the SMR rarely operates steam, but is busy. The Manx electric. The Hollentalbahn.

As you say, the SMR is a tourist attraction in its own right. Most people don't come for the steam. And I would say the same applies to most if not all other preserved railways too. Most non-enthusiasts just come for the train ride, steam is just the icing on the cake. This is surely true of the Dartmouth line, which is an attraction in its own right, in a major tourist area. I think they might see a slight drop in custom if they changed to diesel, but that would be more than offset by the savings they would make.

You say people will always be prepared to pay for steam. I think that you are burying your head in the sand. The question is how much. £50? £100? £500? The cost of coal has skyrocketed recently, and is seriously impacting on the viability of many preserved railways. The NYMR, for example, has been running at a substantial loss for the last couple of years. If preserved railways are to survive, they are going to have to charge prices that reflect their costs, and it now costs significantly more to run a steam loco than it did just a couple of years ago. As I said, people are already jibbing at the prices that the NYMR are charging, and they are not even breaking even.

The SMR now charges a substantial premium to travel on its steam services. Most people prefer not to pay the premium, and are happy to travel behind a diesel. I think other preserved railways are going to be following this example, sooner or later. Hopefully before they go bust.

 

[Cowley]

A couple of things that I think make the Dartmouth Steam Railway more likely to stick with running steam into the future in my opinion.

1) They’ve diversified into running the various ferries that they now own in the tourist honeypot that they operate in; meaning that their fuel costs for everything they run, taken as a whole are more spread out.
2) A big part of their shtick is the Agatha Christie pre war chocolate box cover gleaming steam locomotives thing. It’s what they’ve always been and it’s what’s made them incredibly financially successful over the years.

On a wider note, it is disappointing that they don’t now stop at the intermediate stations, they do however take a lot of traffic off the roads into Dartmouth and bring a huge amount of tourists into the town. It’s also a wonderful section of line with a bit of everything on it.

Personally I love it, even if the stations are fairly rubbish (barring Kingswear which still has something rather nice about it).

 

[12LDA28C]

There have been a number of visiting railtours and some diesel events in recent years, so it’s not like they don’t engage with enthusiasts at all. I concur with those saying if it isn’t broken don’t fix it.

Personally, I enjoyed my one visit to the line and thought it cracking; the scenery is very pleasant, particularly the approach to Kingwear and the GWR steam locomotive had to work impressively hard to haul the train back up to Paignton.

The vast majority of railtours that visit Kingswear are Saphos steam tours which cater more for the daytripper and luxury dining market than pure enthusiasts. I'm sure the railway does well from access fees paid by the operator of these tours though (LSL).