Declassification of first class

[infobleep]

Declassification is not a right but a discretion by the guard or other person manning the train.

Anecdotally I've noticed that if I train is formed of 8, 10 or 12 coaches as standard during the morning or evening peak first class won't be declassified, especially if the train is always busy. However if a train is formed of 8 carriages instead of 12 there is a much higher chance it will happen even if it's just as busy as my first example.

One might hope declassification of first class would be based on how busy a train is rather than how busy it is only when it is short formed.

Last night I got on the 16:56 Victoria to Littlehampton service which is formed of 8 coaches as standard. It was very busy between London Victoria and East Croydon. It got slightly less busy after that but still some standing. The first class on the train wasn't declassified. I wasn't surprised or expecting it.

This morning I got on the 7:26 from Haywards Heath to London Bridge. Unbeknown to me it was only formed of 8 carriages instead of 12. However there was enough space for most people in my carriage to sit down if you wished, when I boarded. I was towards the front maybe coach 3.

Once we departed Gatwick Airport the OBS announced that first class was declassified owing to the short formation. As I left my area to see it there was any first class seats free, there was the odd seat sit free in the middle of people where I'd sat but more were standing than seats free.

In the end I wasn't close enough to first class to take advantaged of it but I l saw someone moving into first class when I arrived there. I then stood to my destination which wasn't too far away.

This situation reminded me of a Guildford to Waterloo fast service in the morning. One that has people standing and only the odd seat free in the middle of three, if it's a class 450 or none if it's a 444. On these first class is not declassified. Such a train will be 10 or 12 carriages long.

The 18:39 Waterloo to Pool service use to be formed of 5 carriages some years ago and that was never declassified, despite being very busy from Clapham Junction as passengers for the Portsmouth Direct needed to board it and change at Woking, now it's 8 carriages my comments don't apply.

It could be argued that none of the regular trains should have first clsss declassified aspeople buy a first class ticket to get a seat and there fares are needed to fund the railways. However if this is indeed a good thing, why doesn't the same apply to short formed trains of 8 carriages. These are just a busy as those regular trains. Maybe I'd draw a line at a 12 carriage train shortened to 4 carriages. Obviously my examples are based on the areas I know and things might be different in other parts of the UK.

 

[Flying Snail]

The only real selling point for 1st class away from Intercity services is the better chance of getting a seat on otherwise rammed trains.

On most commuter services the seats are the same or so similar not to be worth any upgrade and of course there are no extra services or lounges available. Even longer distance trains have had their 1st class provision downgraded such as the SWR 444s to the same 2+2 as std class.

If 1st is to be declassified every time a train is packed then it literally has no selling point any more and it would be entirely disingenuous to sell 1st class tickets to anyone on these routes.

Either keep 1st for 1st ticket holders or do away with it entirely. TBH the size of the 1st class areas on these trains is so small it is little more than tokenism declassifying them anyway.

Maybe it is not always true but every single commuter train I've been on that was 10+ coaches has had considerable differences in load level through the train, pick the quieter part and you are as likely to get less crowds than in a declassified 1st in the busiest coach anyway.

 

[APT618S]

I've had the reverse, where on a deserted Intercity train the crew probably outnumbered the passengers and we were invited to join them in first class !
Maybe the crew were lonely

 

[2L70]

Declassification is not a right but a discretion.

Unless you travel from Selby to Leeds and think the former.

 

[Bn2020]

You mention standing and “a few empty middle seats” on the 450s. Standard is not full, overcrowded or crush loaded in that scenario and people have chosen to stand. I don’t think First should be declassified in that scenario. Additionally there are only 24 first class seats available - also busy with First class ticketed passengers.

First Class should be for those who have paid the extra for first class tickets - unless there is serious disruption or crush loading. Not usual commuting volumes. For SWR hopefully the 710s will reduce crowding but if growth continues long-term something like Crossrail 2 is necessary.

 

[infobleep]

Declassification is not a right but a discretion.

Unless you travel from Selby to Leeds and think the former.

I've got travelled from Selby to Leeds. Am I missing out?

 

[infobleep]

You mention standing and “a few empty middle seats” on the 450s. Standard is not full, overcrowded or crush loaded in that scenario and people have chosen to stand. I don’t think First should be declassified in that scenario. Additionally there are only 24 first class seats available - also busy with First class ticketed passengers.

First Class should be for those who have paid the extra for first class tickets - unless there is serious disruption or crush loading. Not usual commuting volumes. For SWR hopefully the 710s will reduce crowding but if growth continues long-term something like Crossrail 2 is necessary.

Well whether it should have been or not, that is what the OBS did.

Had it been 8 carriages as standard, I doubt the OBS would have done that. Perhaps it's physiological. Less carriages than usual makes one think of overcrowding.

 

[Tetchytyke]

If a train is its usual formation then first class shouldn't be declassified; in the south east, the space is why you pay for first class. You don't get anything else.

If it's a short-form then- usually- it will be busier than normal. After all, it wouldn't be scheduled a 12-car if demand didn't warrant it. So yes, it's more likely to see declassification.

 

[infobleep]

If a train is its usual formation then first class shouldn't be declassified; in the south east, the space is why you pay for first class. You don't get anything else.

If it's a short-form then- usually- it will be busier than normal. After all, it wouldn't be scheduled a 12-car if demand didn't warrant it. So yes, it's more likely to see declassification.

Well on some trains it does warrant more carriages but they don't have the spare rolling stock to do so.