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Delay a service by 20 minutes to let a fast train overtake. LOGIC?

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markymark2000

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Just travelled on 1V96 from Chester on a 158. I want to understand what is the logic in holding this service by 12 minutes at Chester to allow 1V41 (class 150) to overtake. 1V96 then got delayed again at Wrexham for around 4 minutes longer (overall 22 late off Wrexham) than needed to await 1V41 to get more ahead.

The line from Crewe to Shrewsbury is blocked due to signalling issues so services are diverting via Chester which explains why this situation ever occurred.

1V96 is pretty full, around 250 people on the train because Wrexham is playing at home. Given Wrexham has a the loop or given that the 158, while it may serve some stations, is faster overall, why choose Chester to hold 1V96 when instead it could have got to Wrexham, unloaded all the football fans and then been looped awaiting 1V41 to pass. Or even better, let 1V96 run to time and sort it out at Shrewsbury since by that point, both trains would have been basically together rather than holding a service back for so long for the other train to overtake. It makes no sense. The point of overtaking is the fact the other train would get there quicker but instead, it won't have got down to Shrewsbury much quicker but instead it delayed another service by quite a hefty amount. As it turns out (as could have been predicted earlier if the so called professionals did their job properly), 1V41 which overtook 1V96, didn't even get into Shrewsbury until 13:15. Had they let 1V96 run on time it would have arrived into Shrewsbury at 13:10-13:13ish depending and 1V41 would have picked up an additional delays of around a minute or two.

Once again, our railway excels itself in just how down right stupid it is. Delaying a service by overall 23 minutes, to let a fast train overtake? Come on, isn't the railway meant to be full of professionals? Anyone can see that this isn't a good plan! Short sighted decisions and no one held accountable. Instead of running 1 train on time (or mostly to time) and then having the diverted one delayed slightly longer, no no no, can't do that. If one is delayed, everyone must be delayed. And people wonder why folk are getting more angry with how the railways are being ran, especially in TFW land. And all of these decisions are taken by nationalised firms! You wouldn't get this stupid logic on the WCML, private companies would be wanting their compensation.


Adding to this, I think it's high time that Wrexham General gets resignalled for BiDi signalling in P1/2 or a link it out in from Chester to Platform 3, it would ease situations like this and would save the few trains per day reversing in Croes Newydd so enable better engineering access and save on staff pay as they could cut 20 minutes off the start or finish of shifts.
 
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JonathanH

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Some context might help this story as 1V96 and 1V41 doesn't mean anything to anyone.

1V96 1030 Holyhead to Cardiff Central
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L07429/2023-03-25/detailed

Due to depart Chester at 1221, actually left 1234.

1V41 1210 Crewe to Swansea (originally 1130 from Manchester Piccadilly) diverted via Chester, running non stop to Shrewsbury.
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L07392/2023-03-25/detailed

It looks like the latter train (1V41) did manage to get to Shrewsbury earlier than it would have done had it followed (1V96) so it is 34 minutes late from Shrewsbury rather than 45 minutes late.
 

markymark2000

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Some context might help this story as 1V96 and 1V41 doesn't mean anything to anyone.

1V96 1030 Holyhead to Cardiff Central
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L07429/2023-03-25/detailed

Due to depart Chester at 1221, actually left 1234.

1V41 1210 Crewe to Swansea (originally 1130 from Manchester Piccadilly) diverted via Chester, running non stop to Shrewsbury.
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L07392/2023-03-25/detailed
Sorry, I forgot to include the links.

Thank you for posting them
 

Horizon22

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Given that it didn't run booked route, it is hard to tell at what time 1V41 got to Chester - I would imagine around the same time 1V96 was due to depart but probably after.

Seeing as 1V96 has intermediate stops and 1V41 is on diversion, it is perfectly natural to let 1V96 have a run through before the stopper - it was 34L by Shrewsbury already, so imagine how late it would have been if caught behind the stopper. Holding slower trains for fast trains is better, but its a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. Depends how long it had been going on; if there was a repeat event maybe it would be done differently.

And as for your nationalisation chat - a decision like this would be made by Network Rail signaller / train running control, although TfW control could request one to go ahead of the other as it was both their services. You also have to take into account the wider picture - is the train crew of 1V41 going to be late on break? What is the turnaround times? What future conflicts might that train get if it is XX late.

In such circumstances where you are mixing in stopping and fast traffic during a degraded situation, there is no optimal answer.
 

66701GBRF

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Just travelled on 1V96 from Chester on a 158. I want to understand what is the logic in holding this service by 12 minutes at Chester to allow 1V41 (class 150) to overtake. 1V96 then got delayed again at Wrexham for around 4 minutes longer (overall 22 late off Wrexham) than needed to await 1V41 to get more ahead.

The line from Crewe to Shrewsbury is blocked due to signalling issues so services are diverting via Chester which explains why this situation ever occurred.

1V96 is pretty full, around 250 people on the train because Wrexham is playing at home. Given Wrexham has a the loop or given that the 158, while it may serve some stations, is faster overall, why choose Chester to hold 1V96 when instead it could have got to Wrexham, unloaded all the football fans and then been looped awaiting 1V41 to pass. Or even better, let 1V96 run to time and sort it out at Shrewsbury since by that point, both trains would have been basically together rather than holding a service back for so long for the other train to overtake. It makes no sense. The point of overtaking is the fact the other train would get there quicker but instead, it won't have got down to Shrewsbury much quicker but instead it delayed another service by quite a hefty amount. As it turns out (as could have been predicted earlier if the so called professionals did their job properly), 1V41 which overtook 1V96, didn't even get into Shrewsbury until 13:15. Had they let 1V96 run on time it would have arrived into Shrewsbury at 13:10-13:13ish depending and 1V41 would have picked up an additional delays of around a minute or two.

Once again, our railway excels itself in just how down right stupid it is. Delaying a service by overall 23 minutes, to let a fast train overtake? Come on, isn't the railway meant to be full of professionals? Anyone can see that this isn't a good plan! Short sighted decisions and no one held accountable. Instead of running 1 train on time (or mostly to time) and then having the diverted one delayed slightly longer, no no no, can't do that. If one is delayed, everyone must be delayed. And people wonder why folk are getting more angry with how the railways are being ran, especially in TFW land. And all of these decisions are taken by nationalised firms! You wouldn't get this stupid logic on the WCML, private companies would be wanting their compensation.


Adding to this, I think it's high time that Wrexham General gets resignalled for BiDi signalling in P1/2 or a link it out in from Chester to Platform 3, it would ease situations like this and would save the few trains per day reversing in Croes Newydd so enable better engineering access and save on staff pay as they could cut 20 minutes off the start or finish of shifts.

Are you sure you actually want to understand the reasons or just wanted to have a moan while questioning other peoples professionalism without any kind of knowledge of why those decisions were taken?
 

MP393

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There are some very long absolute block sections on that line between Wrexham & Shrewsbury, as well as the single line section from Chester - Wrexham. The delay for the Manchester - Cardiff would’ve been much greater if it followed the all stops. There’s other factors to think about too, such as crew hours, PNBs, units next work etc. It may not seem ideal to delay two trains rather than one, but sometimes it’s about the bigger picture and this is exactly one of those times
 

Horizon22

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Thanks - so I note that diversion with a clear run took 1 hour. So if possible (that I don't know) looping at Wrexham might been preferable as it wouldn't have taken only 3 minutes for 1V41 from Chester to Wrexham but its also a single-line.

I do also note that 1V96 runs out empty into the sidings, so the delay might have been accepted and absorbed.

We've had about 20+ minutes to review this - a controller or a signaller might have but a few minutes to make a call, in addition to everything else they are having to keep a watch on.
 

sd0733

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The Guard who works 1V41 from Crewe to Shrewsbury then works 1V96 from Shrewsbury to Cardiff.
If it had been sent Behind it then It would have had to wait at Shrewsbury anyway therefore delaying both trains so there's not just a massive amount of logic in sending 1V41 first but it pretty much would have screwed up Shrewsbury for a period.of time if it hadn't happened.
 

Horizon22

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The Guard who works 1V41 from Crewe to Shrewsbury then works 1V96 from Shrewsbury to Cardiff.
If it had been sent Behind it then It would have had to wait at Shrewsbury anyway therefore delaying both trains so there's not just a massive amount of logic in sending 1V41 first but it pretty much would have screwed up Shrewsbury for a period.of time if it hadn't happened.

And there you have it - there's normally a reason for such actions.
 
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The Guard who works 1V41 from Crewe to Shrewsbury then works 1V96 from Shrewsbury to Cardiff.
If it had been sent Behind it then It would have had to wait at Shrewsbury anyway therefore delaying both trains so there's not just a massive amount of logic in sending 1V41 first but it pretty much would have screwed up Shrewsbury for a period.of time if it hadn't happened.
And there you have it.
There is always a reason for the decision and whilst to the aggrieved OP and passengers on 1V41 it may seem wrong, if it had been done any other way, the railway wound have ground to a halt around Shrewsbury making a bad situation far worse.
It is always disappointing when the OP adds so much vitriol to the original post rather than just questioning the facts and waiting for the answer.
 

dk1

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Always best to look at the bigger picture. There is normally a logical explanation & here we have it 8-)
 

800001

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Just travelled on 1V96 from Chester on a 158. I want to understand what is the logic in holding this service by 12 minutes at Chester to allow 1V41 (class 150) to overtake. 1V96 then got delayed again at Wrexham for around 4 minutes longer (overall 22 late off Wrexham) than needed to await 1V41 to get more ahead.

The line from Crewe to Shrewsbury is blocked due to signalling issues so services are diverting via Chester which explains why this situation ever occurred.

1V96 is pretty full, around 250 people on the train because Wrexham is playing at home. Given Wrexham has a the loop or given that the 158, while it may serve some stations, is faster overall, why choose Chester to hold 1V96 when instead it could have got to Wrexham, unloaded all the football fans and then been looped awaiting 1V41 to pass. Or even better, let 1V96 run to time and sort it out at Shrewsbury since by that point, both trains would have been basically together rather than holding a service back for so long for the other train to overtake. It makes no sense. The point of overtaking is the fact the other train would get there quicker but instead, it won't have got down to Shrewsbury much quicker but instead it delayed another service by quite a hefty amount. As it turns out (as could have been predicted earlier if the so called professionals did their job properly), 1V41 which overtook 1V96, didn't even get into Shrewsbury until 13:15. Had they let 1V96 run on time it would have arrived into Shrewsbury at 13:10-13:13ish depending and 1V41 would have picked up an additional delays of around a minute or two.

Once again, our railway excels itself in just how down right stupid it is. Delaying a service by overall 23 minutes, to let a fast train overtake? Come on, isn't the railway meant to be full of professionals? Anyone can see that this isn't a good plan! Short sighted decisions and no one held accountable. Instead of running 1 train on time (or mostly to time) and then having the diverted one delayed slightly longer, no no no, can't do that. If one is delayed, everyone must be delayed. And people wonder why folk are getting more angry with how the railways are being ran, especially in TFW land. And all of these decisions are taken by nationalised firms! You wouldn't get this stupid logic on the WCML, private companies would be wanting their compensation.


Adding to this, I think it's high time that Wrexham General gets resignalled for BiDi signalling in P1/2 or a link it out in from Chester to Platform 3, it would ease situations like this and would save the few trains per day reversing in Croes Newydd so enable better engineering access and save on staff pay as they could cut 20 minutes off the start or finish of shifts.
All decisions made by extremely professional people who will also have to take full accountability for there actions.

As others have said it was done for the greater food of the railway, and yes these things would also happen on the WCML as well.
 

43066

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The Guard who works 1V41 from Crewe to Shrewsbury then works 1V96 from Shrewsbury to Cardiff.
If it had been sent Behind it then It would have had to wait at Shrewsbury anyway therefore delaying both trains so there's not just a massive amount of logic in sending 1V41 first but it pretty much would have screwed up Shrewsbury for a period.of time if it hadn't happened.

A very sensible answer to a rather silly and OTT opening post!
 

Bow Fell

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Once again, our railway excels itself in just how down right stupid it is. Delaying a service by overall 23 minutes, to let a fast train overtake? Come on, isn't the railway meant to be full of professionals? Anyone can see that this isn't a good plan! Short sighted decisions and no one held accountable. Instead of running 1 train on time (or mostly to time) and then having the diverted one delayed slightly longer, no no no, can't do that. If one is delayed, everyone must be delayed. And people wonder why folk are getting more angry with how the railways are being ran, especially in TFW land. And all of these decisions are taken by nationalised firms! You wouldn't get this stupid logic on the WCML, private companies would be wanting their compensation.

Not sure what nationalisation has got to do with anything, a regulation decision has zero bearing on this.

Haven’t got a problem whatsoever (as discussed on a similar thread recently) with people questioning decisions, it’s good healthy debate.

But don’t tell me my decisions are wrong or question my professionalism, unless you have exactly the same information I have in front of me.

If you’ve got CCF, Trust, Genius, simplifiers, unit diagrams, traincrew diagrams all in front of you and would have done it different, fair enough.
 

zwk500

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If you’ve got CCF, Trust, Genius, simplifiers, unit diagrams, traincrew diagrams all in front of you and would have done it different, fair enough.
Worth also pointing out in this part of the world that CCF and TRUST would have limited or no coverage, it being largely an AB area. So controllers and signallers are making decisions based on relatively sparse info.
 
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