Delay repay: last train cancelled

[istead]

I had a delay repay claim rejected from Northern (journey from Kings Cross to Doncaster, Friday 8th November 2019) because:

"We’ve rejected your claim because you haven’t used your ticket to travel
or did not complete your full journey by train. Our delay repay process only
applies if you complete your full journey by train and are delayed by 15
minutes or more."

The situation is that my Northern train from Doncaster to Nafferton was cancelled, so I could go as far as Beverley. The last train from Beverley to Nafferton was also cancelled. I then had to get a lift of family but still arrived to Nafferton well over an hour after my original scheduled arrival time.

Does anyone know if this Northen's rejection is consistent with NRCoT? 32.1 of that says:

If you are delayed in reaching your destination as a result of a delay or cancellation of a train service, you may be entitled to claim money back

The Northern passenger charter says:

You can claim Delay Repay if delays or cancellations result in you getting to your destination 15 or more minutes later than scheduled.
Source: https://d2cf7kiw5xizhy.cloudfront.net/images/policy/2019-01/Northern_Customer_Promise.pdf, p.14

My argument is that the train delay meant I was late to my destination - I see nowhere in the NRCoT or Northern passenger charter that rules out a claim if you reach the destination by other means. I have raised a challenge and next step Rail Ombudsman if Northern don't pay up. Any advice much appreciated.

 

[yorkie]

Can you post your intended itinerary in full, along with details of the actual timings.

Were Northern providing a rail replacement bus or taxis? You say you "had to" arrange your own transport; were Northern refusing to provide it? What happened to other passengers?

If you saved Northern money by arranging your own transport instead of making them pay for a taxi, they should be grateful!

Unfortunately this sort of behaviour is what I would expect from a company such as Northern, so I am not surprised.

So be prepared to take it to the Ombudsman. Try to avoid confusion when describing the issue, e.g. you should avoid saying " journey from Kings Cross to Doncaster" if your journey was to Nafferton.

 

[istead]

Cheers. It won't let me edit my post, so here are the timings:

The intended itinerary was:
Kings Cross 17:12 - 18:22 Peterborough (Great Northern)
Peterborough 18:55 - 19:48 Doncaster (LNER)
Doncaster 20:00 - 21:30 Nafferton (Northern)

The first two trains were on time, but the 20:00 from Doncaster was cancelled and the only available train in that direction was the delayed 20:28 from Doncaster to Beverley, which arrived at Beverley at 21:51. The last train from Beverley to Nafferton, the 22:11 due in to Nafferton at 22:30, was cancelled and we got a lift home off family. I did not bother finding out what was happening to other passengers or try and contact Northern due to the offer of a lift.

The tickets cost £31 for the two of us (we used a Two Together railcard). A taxi would have easily cost £40+, it's a 30 mins/15 miles drive.

 

[yorkie]

I don't see how Northern have a case to refuse to pay delay compensation for a 1 hour delay.

Who was the retailer, out of interest?

 

[istead]

I don't see how Northern have a case to refuse to pay delay compensation for a 1 hour delay.

Who was the retailer, out of interest?

Raileasy. I know, I'm cheap.

 

[istead]

A related question. We were also delayed on our return journey back to Kings Cross. We ended up not getting back until Monday 11th November, the day after we were supposed to. We have season tickets from London Terminals to Redhill- are we entitled to claim delay repay for that leg of the journey too (we ultimately needed to get to Redhill where we live)? Clearly our purchased ticket only covered Nafferton to Kings Cross, but the delay caused by the Northern rail leg meant we also were delayed getting to Redhill.

 

[WesternLancer]

A related question. We were also delayed on our return journey back to Kings Cross. We ended up not getting back until Monday 11th November, the day after we were supposed to. We have season tickets from London Terminals to Redhill- are we entitled to claim delay repay for that leg of the journey too (we ultimately needed to get to Redhill where we live)? Clearly our purchased ticket only covered Nafferton to Kings Cross, but the delay caused by the Northern rail leg meant we also were delayed getting to Redhill.

In my view you need to be claiming Delay Repay for the complete journey in each direction according to your original planned itinerary (eg if you were going to / from Redhill to Nafferton - even with split tickets - but not intending to have an overnight break of journey - you should be claiming for the price for the whole thing. That might not be fair to apply however if for example you used season to get Redhill to London, spent day at work, then left Kings Cross for Nafferton. I would regard that as 2 separate journeys. However, southbound you suggest that you were heading on one through journey from Nafferton to Redhill, albeit quite legitimately using different types of tickets (ie your season) for part of the journey.

Another recent post on here indicated a useful pro rata calculation for the value ofg the element of the trip where you used your season ticket (eg if a weekly season divide it by 5 days and divide that by 2 for a single journey) - set that out in the claim itemized and ask for the sum you expect and let them respond.

Apply tot he Train company that was responsible for the delay which going north would appear to be Northern who cancelled their train at Doncaster.

Southbound you suggest it was Northern who caused that delay too (if I have this correct, you did not really explain what went wrong travelling south)

Hope this helps.

Bear in mind the actual tickets you had for the journey (Advance / split tickets / Off Peak etc - it may help if you list them out here) - and you may not be entitled to more than 100% of the total price paid.

I suspect you will need to be prepared to appeal any claim rejected by Northern as I suspect your totally logical (to me) journey and ticketing plans might fail to be understood when you claim.

probably you should bear in mind that your decision to take a lift for final leg will be considered under the Conditions of Carriage that state you are entitled to a refund for a decision not to travel due to a delayed or cancelled train (ie you abandoned Northern's service or replacement taxi offer or whatever might have been arranged had you asked for help from a member of staff).

 

[robbeech]

probably you should bear in mind that your decision to take a lift for final leg will be considered under the Conditions of Carriage that state you are entitled to a refund for a decision not to travel due to a delayed or cancelled train (ie you abandoned Northern's service or replacement taxi offer or whatever might have been arranged had you asked for help from a member of staff).

This is all well and good but the retailer here will likely reject your refund request as you did not abandon your journey and return to your origin. They'd be right to do so but this doesn't help you. It looks like the Ombudsman will be getting hold of this case when they continue to reject sadly.

 

[WesternLancer]

This is all well and good but the retailer here will likely reject your refund request as you did not abandon your journey and return to your origin. They'd be right to do so but this doesn't help you. It looks like the Ombudsman will be getting hold of this case when they continue to reject sadly.

What I was trying to say is that the OP did not travel the last leg with Northern (they used their won resources) but in fact that got them to destination I suspect quicker than anything Northern would have come up with as an alternative.

Given the overall delay however, we are well into over 60 minute delay at final arrival time surely (given the cancellation of the train concerned following earlier delay after Doncaster), and commensurate compensation.

It may not be an Ombudsman case - just a requirement for someone at Northern to actually carefully read and understand the nature of the claim. If they can't do that then they need to be referred to Ombudsman I would agree.

 

[gray1404]

That said, it would not be unreasonable for the OP to claim the cost of fuel back from Northern, if no alternative transport was offered.

 

[Haywain]

That said, it would not be unreasonable for the OP to claim the cost of fuel back from Northern, if no alternative transport was offered.

The OP has stated that they “didn’t bother to find out what was happening” in that respect.

 

[gray1404]

In that case, it sounds like a 1 hour delay repay compensation case on the entire combination of tickets used (taking into account the season tickets held if the OP and their travelling companion used these to get into London before taking the train up North.)

As stated above the OP needs to ask Northern to look at this again. Make clear the intended trains and what happened in reality and the final arrival time. Also, a clear list of which tickets were held to cover the entire journey.

OP: the tickets you said cost GBP31. Was this the cost of 2 single tickets?

What went wrong on the return journey and what tickets were held for this?

 

[WesternLancer]

The OP has stated that they “didn’t bother to find out what was happening” in that respect.

Yes, I am sure the Northern Gaurd would have got in touch with their control for guidance etc if it had become clear before alighting their train at Beverley that the onward train was cancelled and the passenger would otherwise have been stranded.

 

[sheff1]

Any advice much appreciated.

My advice -
If you do need to escalate to the Ombudsman make sure you state clearly exactly which jouney(s) you are claiming for.

It is very difficult to deal with something when information is being dripped in. The first mention on here was of a Kings Cross to Doncaster journey, which then became Kings Cross to Nafferton and then (possibly) Redhill to Nafferton. This was then followed by a southbound journey from (possibly) Nafferton to Kings Cross or maybe Redhill.
Northern Delay Repay handlers often to seem to struggle understand a claim which is clearly stated at the outset. If your follow up to them was as confusing as the posts on here I wonder what they will make of it.

 

[Haywain]

However, to claim for a valid journey to or from Redhill it would be necessary for the itinerary to include the appropriate amount of time for connections across London (even St Pancras to Kings Cross) - this can result in the actual journey undertaken not having a valid itinerary.

 

[WesternLancer]

My advice -
If you do need to escalate to the Ombudsman make sure you state clearly exactly which jouney(s) you are claiming for.

It is very difficult to deal with something when information is being dripped in. The first mention on here was of a Kings Cross to Doncaster journey, which then became Kings Cross to Nafferton and then (possibly) Redhill to Nafferton. This was then followed by a southbound journey from (possibly) Nafferton to Kings Cross or maybe Redhill.
Northern Delay Repay handlers often to seem to struggle understand a claim which is clearly stated at the outset. If your follow up to them was as confusing as the posts on here I wonder what they will make of it.

This is very well put.

My instinct is that the OP has a good claim northbound at least for a delayed journey London to Beverley based on the arrival time at Beverley under Delay Repay (I presume for 2 people on Advance tickets with a 2-together railcard, given the price cited earlier). I'd have thought Northern could clearly accept that if it was set out clearly - they then abandoned the Train due to a further cancellation for which I think it would be reasonable for Northern to offer further ex gratia compensation, but since they did not ask for onward help with the journey (and who can blame them!) it may well be fair for Northern to reject that. I assume the OP either had a Advance through ticket London to Nafferton or a split ticket with a Doncaster to Nafferton ticket.

OP will probably be back to clarify.

 

[istead]

In that case, it sounds like a 1 hour delay repay compensation case on the entire combination of tickets used (taking into account the season tickets held if the OP and their travelling companion used these to get into London before taking the train up North.)

As stated above the OP needs to ask Northern to look at this again. Make clear the intended trains and what happened in reality and the final arrival time. Also, a clear list of which tickets were held to cover the entire journey.

OP: the tickets you said cost GBP31. Was this the cost of 2 single tickets?

What went wrong on the return journey and what tickets were held for this?

The outbound tickets were £31 for two single tickets bought with a 2 together railcard. They were split tickets: London to Peterborough, Peterborough to Doncaster, and Doncaster to Nafferton.

The return journey on Sunday 10th November was another little adventure. Planned itinerary:
Nafferton 19:51 - 21:19 Doncaster (Northern)
Doncaster 21:26 - 23:17 London Kings Cross (LNER)
London Victoria 00:08 - 00:52 Redhill (Southern)

Note there was ample time allowed from 23:17 to 00:08 to get from Kings Cross to Victoria via the Victoria Line.

Tickets purchased from LNER for Nafferton to Doncaster, 2 tickets at £10.90 (2 together railcard) = £21.80. Annual season ticket helds by partner and myself from Redhill to London Terminals, costing £2828 each.

The 19:51 from Nafferton was cancelled, as was the next (and last) service - the 20:51 which would have got o Doncaster at 22:19. The last train from Doncaster to Kings Cross that evening was at 21:58. Hence we could not complete our journey that day via Doncaster.

As LNER had (after some argument via private messaging on Twitter) offered to carry us to London from York, we took the 19:51 from Nafferton which was running as far as Hull, arriving 20:26. We then took the 21:34 to York arriving 22:43 and booked ourselves a cheap hotel (£40.50) as the last train from York to London that evening was at 21:35. We then took the 06:01 from York to Kings Cross the next morning, and then went to Redhill from London Victoria (London Underground between Kings Cross and Victoria).

Separately, I've asked Northern for compensation for the hotel, although I am not optimistic as I didn't directly ask them to put us up for the night or get us to London Kings Cross by some other means. While Nafferton station is unmanned I could have asked for help at Hull or York, or called them. That being said, I did offer (again via Twitter) to be driven to Coventry by family if LNER and/or Northern would arrange acceptance for my ticket from there to London Euston (or bought me an appropriate ticket), but was refused.

Finally, as a newbie here, thanks very much to everyone for all your time, feedback and input, very much appreciated.

 

[yorkie]

Where practicable, the best thing to do is to come to an agreement with the liable TOC (ie. Northern) rather than another TOC (ie. LNER) if you want additional compensation for hotels or alternative transport etc, if this wasn't done.

If you did not approach Northern for a solution then they might reasonably refuse to pay for the hotel on the basis that, if you had approached them, they would have made or authorised alternative arrangements.

However clearly the cancellation of the trains to and from Nafferton caused both journeys to be delayed by 60+ minutes, and therefore you should recieve 100% delay compensation for both your journey from King's Cross to Nafferton and your return journey from Nafferton to Redhill.

It does sound like on both journeys you kept any additional expenses to a minimum and actually saved Northern money, so I'd like to see Northern giving you 100% Delay Repay and consider giving you some sort of additional discretionary compensation, even if it's just a couple of vouchers for free travel on their services on a future date.

 

[robbeech]

Mod Note: The first quote of this post related to a completely different thread and I think was included in error. The poster may have forgotten to post it earlier. I've removed that part of the post, the rest is relevant to this thread.

Yes, I am sure the Northern Gaurd would have got in touch with their control for guidance etc if it had become clear before alighting their train at Beverley that the onward train was cancelled and the passenger would otherwise have been stranded.

In many cases yes, but there are a few guards that simply would not do that and tell you to work it out afterwards or use a potentially faulty help point.

However, to claim for a valid journey to or from Redhill it would be necessary for the itinerary to include the appropriate amount of time for connections across London (even St Pancras to Kings Cross) - this can result in the actual journey undertaken not having a valid itinerary.

Agreed entirely, one cannot have ones cake and eat it in terms of "journey" definition either. If you stopped for a break, or to work in London then this counts as 2 journeys as i believe someone else pointed out.