Deltic (Class 55) query at terminuses

[GrahamD83]

Something that has been bugging me about Deltics (and other loco hauled trains on the ECML for that matter). At London Kings Cross the platforms all end at buffers, meaning the locomotive would be 'trapped' by the coaches. My question is how did the trains 'turn around' to come back north? Was there a loco on both ends, or would another locomotive move in from behind to pull the train back out of the station?

I am too young to have seen these locomotives in service, but recently saw a photo on Facebook showing three of four Deltics lined up at Kings Cross which made me think about this.

 

[Cowley]

Something that has been bugging me about Deltics (and other loco hauled trains on the ECML for that matter). At London Kings Cross the platforms all end at buffers, meaning the locomotive would be 'trapped' by the coaches. My question is how did the trains 'turn around' to come back north? Was there a loco on both ends, or would another locomotive move in from behind to pull the train back out of the station?

I am too young to have seen these locomotives in service, but recently saw a photo on Facebook showing three of four Deltics lined up at Kings Cross which made me think about this.

I guess it was probably a case of shunt releases using class 31s, but I’m not sure?

 

[Sun Chariot]

In the days of loco hauled coaching stock, the arriving loco would be uncoupled from the train; another loco would couple up to the opposite end of the train, to either take it out for cleaning/servicing, or to be the train engine for the next outward service.

If the stock was being taken for cleaning, then - as Cowley says - usually a 31 did the honours. If the stock was forming an outbound service, then the attached loco would be the allocated Type 4 or Type 5.

Kings Cross stabling point (latterly, Finsbury Park) provided the motive power for the "attached other end" locomotive.

Once the train had cleared the station and signal section, the "inbound arrived" loco would draw up to platform end and then run light to Finsbury Park for refuelling.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Same practice happened at many terminal locations that lacked run round facilities. Known as 'turnover' (loco) movements, ie the inbound loco doesn't work its own train back out, but works the stock of the following inbound service out again.
The Napierchronicles website has details of the Deltic diagrams for numerous years, if you wish to get a feel for how their diagrams worked, with shunts to Kings Cross loco for fuel etc. That was always a fascinating place to watch from the top of p8, being such a small, cramped location.

 

[Undaunted]

Once the train had cleared the station and signal section, the "inbound arrived" loco would draw up to platform end and then run light to Finsbury Park for refuelling.

Actually, the locomotive that had brought the train in would normally follow the departing train immediately, a few metres behind, stopping at the signal at the end of the platform until a route could be set for it. If the incoming locomotive could not follow the train in this way, the signaller needed to be told and it could not then be moved away from the buffer stops without the authority of the signaller.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Actually, the locomotive that had brought the train in would normally follow the departing train immediately, a few metres behind, stopping at the signal at the end of the platform until a route could be set for it.

During the 1980s I indeed used to see that very practice at Waterloo (Salisbury and Exeter services).
Kings Cross and Paddington, I only reall seeing one occasion at each where the inbound loco followed immediately behind, from the bufferstops to the platform end.

 

[norbitonflyer]

At large termini where space was limited and a depot was near at hand, another locomotive would be attached to the country end of the train to take it out, releasing the loco "on the stops" either to take out a later train or go to the depot. Ranelagh Bridge depot and Kings Cross depots, were located very close to Paddington and KX respectively, to allow minor attention (essentially only refuelling) without running all the way back to Old Oak/Finsbury Park. There was a short bay at Waterloo for the same purpose.

At smaller termini locomotives would usually run round their train, using a parallel track.

 

[Undaunted]

During the 1980s I indeed used to see that very practice at Waterloo (Salisbury and Exeter services).
Kings Cross and Paddington, I only reall seeing one occasion at each where the inbound loco followed immediately behind, from the bufferstops to the platform end.

Interesting. It was Waterloo I was thinking of, where the movement of the incoming locomotive immediately behind the outgoing train was timed and resouced in the driver/secondman diagrams and not left to the motive power supervisor to cover on an ad-hoc basis.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Interesting. It was Waterloo I was thinking of, where the movement of the incoming locomotive immediately behind the outgoing train was timed and resouced in the driver/secondman diagrams and not left to the motive power supervisor to cover on an ad-hoc basis.

Yes, the Waterloo loco-releases were a very sprightly affair.
Euston, conversely - surprising, in light of its intensive usage - I'd see 85s, 86s & 87s sometimes sat at the buffers for ages.

 

[Magdalia]

For most of the Deltic era the track layout and mode of operation at Kings Cross were very different from now. The track layout was designed for steam operation and was significantly changed in 1977 prior to electrification and the introduction of HSTs.

In the steam era big termini like Kings Cross had an arrivals side and a departures side. Kings Cross is a particularly good example because the arrivals side and the departures side are the two main train sheds now platforms 1-4 and 5-8. Most long distance arrivals would go to the carriage sidings for servicing, and most long distance departures would be formed of stock brought in from the carriage sidings. These are referred to as ECS (empty coaching stock) movements and in the diesel era the ECS trains at Kings Cross were mainly worked by class 31s.

A Deltic coming into Kings Cross on a main line arrival would come into one of the low numbered platforms and get released when the ECS went out the sidings. It would then have to do a complicated triple shunt across the station layout to get onto the loco holding sidings for fuel and servicing. The holding sidings were next to the lines leading into the westernmost Gasworks Tunnel.

The next down working would probably be from one of the higher numbered platforms dropping onto a newly arrived train of serviced carriages and involving a less complicated shunt to get from the holding sidings to the departure platform.

The introduction of MarkII carriages in the mid 1960s led to more intensive use of rolling stock so there were more down departures formed from up arrivals, with servicing in the station not at the carriage sidings. The earliest examples were the "8 coach flyers", though turnrounds were much longer than now. In these cases the loco working the up train would have to wait for the down working to depart before being able to get to the holding sidings for fuel and servicing.

 

[Cowley]

Yes, the Waterloo loco-releases were a very sprightly affair.
Euston, conversely - surprising, in light of its intensive usage - I'd see 85s, 86s & 87s sometimes sat at the buffers for ages.

Of course Euston had those interesting micro fleets of long withdrawn from express passenger service class 82s and 83s for coaching stock moves. I think they were limited to 40 mph possibly?

83012 was painted into Intercity exec and still retained its headcode blinds surprisingly. Photo by John Law:

glc - 83012 euston 86 JL

Explore johnmightycat1's 100519 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

Edit - Just remembered that we had a similar thread on this not that long ago:

Typical LHCS operations at London terminals (1980s pre DVT)

I realise this is probably a 'sucking eggs' type question, but despite travelling to various rail locations in the 1980s, I never spent any time at a London terminus observing the workings of LHCS (pre-DVT). The most obvious terminals would be Paddington and Euston as these had many hauled...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Sun Chariot]

Same practice happened at many terminal locations that lacked run round facilities. Known as 'turnover' (loco) movements, ie the inbound loco doesn't work its own train back out.

I've only seen one "BR era" occasion where loco uncoupled, drew up to the platform buffers, crossed over, reversed and buffered up to the outward end. Enfield.
It was, admittedly, for an NSE Day, not a regular service train. 37140 + 305403 Liverpool St to Enfield, reverse, back along Seven Sisters loop, then via South Tottenham to Stratford.
The 37's exhaust was as thick as tar and it not only stank out the dragged 305 but - to my delight - every waiting passenger at the stations we passed. Edmondton was totally engulfed, when the driver opened up the Tractor at precisely the right moment.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jul 2024 ==

Of course Euston had those interesting micro fleets of long withdrawn from express passenger service class 82s and 83s for coaching stock moves. I think they were limited to 40 mph possibly?

Teenage trips to London, on a 310, meant arrival into Euston and immediate "hunt" for which 82s and 83s were in use on the Willesden CS moves.
83012 (IC) was the only one to evade my 35mm camera! 82008 (IC) and the blue 82s and 83s, I did capture (and I was happily looking at those photos, only a few weeks ago).

 

[Rescars]

Same practice happened at many terminal locations that lacked run round facilities. Known as 'turnover' (loco) movements, ie the inbound loco doesn't work its own train back out, but works the stock of the following inbound service out again.
The Napierchronicles website has details of the Deltic diagrams for numerous years, if you wish to get a feel for how their diagrams worked, with shunts to Kings Cross loco for fuel etc. That was always a fascinating place to watch from the top of p8, being such a small, cramped location.

The station layout was key. Straightforward running round was much easier to arrange at locations like Birmingham New Street and Wolverhampton (where the running round was carried out at Oxley). Normal practice before the DVT era.

 

[Taunton]

It was indeed common practice at major terminal stations, London and elsewhere, for the incoming loco to be uncoupled, shut down, and wait until the coaches were taken out again. When the diesels were first built the coaches were commonly taken back out to the various servicing yards just outside, not only swept out but also remarshalled for the next requirement. This is how it had always been done with steam locos. Over time trains became fixed formation, run together all day, and began to get turned round in the station platform where diagrams suited, with in-and-out working, with a fresh locomotive. The incoming loco was thus released to attach to a subsequent train.

Specifically for Deltics at Kings Cross, they had quite limited fuel tanks, and similarly steam heating boiler water tanks, and from the long run from Edinburgh could not go back there without servicing. There was a small loco yard on the west side of the station which they would visit to save going up to Finsbury Park shed, and back. Because of the very limited distance between the end of the main line platforms and the tunnels at Kings Cross it was not possible to do this in one go, and the locos would have to shunt back and forth in a W-type manoeuvre to get over, and back. In addition there were still requirements to move trains in and out to the sidings which had no turnround in the sidings, which the fleet of Class 31 handled as described above.

The loco inefficiency was not as bad as described for, taking the Edinburgh end (which I was more familiar with at the time), the only Deltic rapid return possible was off the first Down day train, 0800 from Kings Cross, due around 1400, which could take the last day train back, 1600 from Edinburgh, due Kings Cross 2200, and having to run forward to Haymarket shed to refuel. Everything else departed before the first arrival, or arrived after the last departure. The Deltics did run the many overnight services as well, and thus did a return trip each day, but with significant layover time in between. So time spent sat at the buffers was not an issue.

Routes like Euston to Liverpool/Manchester, terminal platforms at both ends, did have this as an issue. The introduction of Driving Van Trailers at one end, when the same formation and loco shuttled back and forth all day, led to a tremendous improvement in utilisation, such that whole classes of older electric locos could be withdrawn.

 

[Ken H]

There were run round at some termini. Manchester Piccadilly had one. So the procedure of a fresh loco taking the outbound train wasnt 100% universal. Think there was a thread on that here.

Does anyone have a list of run round layouts at termini in the UK?

 

[Sun Chariot]

Does anyone have a list of run round layouts at termini in the UK?

Post #12, I mentioned Enfield; however I've a feeling it's been removed (or out of use).

 

[jfollows]

There were run round at some termini. Manchester Piccadilly had one. So the procedure of a fresh loco taking the outbound train wasnt 100% universal. Think there was a thread on that here.

Does anyone have a list of run round layouts at termini in the UK?

Piccadilly platforms 5 & 6 used once a day by the engine for the Harwich boat train. Arrive platform 5 13:18 and stop short of the buffers. Engine run round through platform 6. Train departs 15:15. As in the 1977 timetable. Never a Deltic, though (a class 45 usually). Run-round between 13:35 and 13:55 between booked services for platform 6.

 

[Gloster]

Paddington in the mid-1980s was mainly HST with most of the loco-hauled trains being peak-hour ones that went out to Old Oak Common for the day. Once they had arrived, the next loco in line was dropped o the rear and took the stock out to the sidings: just about any loco could be used as, although it took quite a time to get through the washing apron, it wasn’t far. There were loco diagrams, but as most of them merely said that the loco would go to Old Oak after being released, a certain amount of flexibility was possible. However, when the coaches were to go straight out on a train, there had to be a certain amount of coordination to ensure that the proper diagrammed loco went on the front.

 

[D1537]

Paddington in the mid-1980s was mainly HST with most of the loco-hauled trains being peak-hour ones that went out to Old Oak Common for the day. Once they had arrived, the next loco in line was dropped o the rear and took the stock out to the sidings: just about any loco could be used as, although it took quite a time to get through the washing apron, it wasn’t far. There were loco diagrams, but as most of them merely said that the loco would go to Old Oak after being released, a certain amount of flexibility was possible. However, when the coaches were to go straight out on a train, there had to be a certain amount of coordination to ensure that the proper diagrammed loco went on the front.

There was an hourly loco-hauled Oxford service (some went to Birmingham and north) outside the peak; those trains merely got a locomotive dropping on the back of the stock and taking it out. The released locomotive would then usually work the next service. In the peak, the same would happen; locomotive would bring in the ECS from Old Oak, another locomotive would drop on and haul the train, released locomotive would work the next peak service. Towards the end of the peak stock would be worked to Old Oak etc.

 

[Sun Chariot]

There was an hourly loco-hauled Oxford service (some went to Birmingham and north) outside the peak; those trains merely got a locomotive dropping on the back of the stock and taking it out.

August 1988, I enjoyed a very sprightly run on the Paddington to Oxford turn. A pair of 50s rolled down from OC; and I have a photo of them before departure.

 

[nw1]

Paddington in the mid-1980s was mainly HST with most of the loco-hauled trains being peak-hour ones that went out to Old Oak Common for the day. Once they had arrived, the next loco in line was dropped o the rear and took the stock out to the sidings: just about any loco could be used as, although it took quite a time to get through the washing apron, it wasn’t far. There were loco diagrams, but as most of them merely said that the loco would go to Old Oak after being released, a certain amount of flexibility was possible. However, when the coaches were to go straight out on a train, there had to be a certain amount of coordination to ensure that the proper diagrammed loco went on the front.

There was an hourly loco-hauled Oxford service (some went to Birmingham and north) outside the peak; those trains merely got a locomotive dropping on the back of the stock and taking it out. The released locomotive would then usually work the next service. In the peak, the same would happen; locomotive would bring in the ECS from Old Oak, another locomotive would drop on and haul the train, released locomotive would work the next peak service. Towards the end of the peak stock would be worked to Old Oak etc.

Paddington workings in the 1980s are quite easy to come by; you can obtain quite a bit of information about four years (1981, 1982, 1985 and 1989) via Timetable World and the BR Coaching Stock group on groups.io. The latter has working books for 1981, 1985 and 1989 for Paddington (thus covering early-, mid- and late-decade) while the former has the Reading working books for 1982 (as well as 1981). Furthermore there are marshalling books for 1984 and circuit workings for some other 80s years for the WR available on the aforementioned groups.io group.

In the mid-80s, starting from 1982 it was indeed mostly HST, including most Oxford off-peak workings. However there were one or two classic loco-hauled workings out to Oxford in the off-peak period, and in 1984 and 1985 there were two 50-hauled Penzances at 0940 and 1340.
The Oxford HSTs were mostly fill-in turns in between longer-distance IC services, which were presumably used to give faster midday journey times to Oxford at a time of day when many HSTs would otherwise be unused. Close to, and during, the peak, Oxford was fully classic loco-hauled.

In 1981 the Oxfords mostly went to either Worcester or Birmingham and were still standard loco-hauled. These were largely self-contained on each route, there being little interworking between Worcesters and Birminghams.

By 1989 Sectorisation had come into play and consequently the majority of Oxfords were now classic loco-hauled NSE services off peak, except one HST over the Cotswolds line and another for Stratford. Other lines were mostly HST but (surprisingly) there were a couple of standard loco-hauled Bristol services in the evening peak. By this time, a two-hourly Newbury fast had also been introduced - which didn't exist earlier in the 80s.

This thread gives more info:

Paddington-Reading 1978-89

This topic has come up in various other threads but with the availability of the Reading station working books from 1982 on Timetable World, plus the existence of many Paddington working books on the BR Coaching Stock groups.io group, it means it's now possible to get a detailed view of services...

www.railforums.co.uk

To give a selection of 1989 workings (as 1989 had more classic hauled services; sorry, no loco diagrams, just coaching stock) on the Oxford and Newbury routes:

0915 Manchester off 0842 Wolverhampton (InterCity sector, presumably)
1015 Oxford formed off ECS from OOC, previously worked peak up service
(1036 Stratford HST off 1000 arrival from Penzance)
1047 Newbury formed off ECS from OOC, previously worked peak up service
(1115 HST to Worcester off 0944 arrival from Hereford)
1215 Oxford formed off 1200 arrival from Oxford
1240 Newbury formed off ECS from OOC, previously worked up service earlier in the day
1315 Oxford again formed ECS OOC
1415 Oxford formed off 1304 arrival from Oxford
1440 Newbury formed off 1310 arrival from Newbury
1515 Oxford formed off 1359 arrival from Oxford
1615 Oxford formed off 1515 arrival from Newbury

Despite regular hauled services that year, still quite a few incoming ECSs from OOC during the morning, and corresponding outgoing OOC ECS workings (e.g. 11+16 off 1056 Newbury arrival and 11+22 off 1100 Oxford arrival).

Some other unexpected classic hauled services in 1989 on mostly HST routes included the 1219 arrival from Swansea, out to OOC and back, forming the 1538 Plymouth and the 1817 and 1823 Bristol services (FX but otherwise neither appeared to be dated; wonder why there were two within 6 minutes?) off morning up Bristol services.

 

[Rescars]

There were run round at some termini. Manchester Piccadilly had one. So the procedure of a fresh loco taking the outbound train wasnt 100% universal. Think there was a thread on that here.

Does anyone have a list of run round layouts at termini in the UK?

There was a survivor at London Bridge until the latest rebuild (I think platform 12 or thereabouts). Others will know why it survived for so long. I cannot guess when it was last used in connection with a regular passenger service. I am sure it never handled a Deltic!

 

[Zamracene749]

There were run round at some termini. Manchester Piccadilly had one. So the procedure of a fresh loco taking the outbound train wasnt 100% universal. Think there was a thread on that here.

Does anyone have a list of run round layouts at termini in the UK?

Holyhead was one, watched many a 37 run round it's stock there in the late 1990s.

 

[75A]

In Sussex:
Brighton Platform 7 was used for Cross Country trains like 'The Manchester', the local class 09 would take the ECS away releasing the 47. After servicing the 350 would take the stock back to Platform 7 and then the loco would follow.
The West Coastway was more interesting, on Saturdays there was a service to the west (Exeter) in my day. Early in the morning a 33 (2 in the Summer) would bring the ECS from New Cross Gate to Hove, via Preston Park. The 09 would then couple up and take the train back to Brighton's Platform 2 (the only one of the 3 West Coast platforms long enough), in the evening when he train returned the 09 would couple up to the last coach and take the lot back to Hove, where the 33 (s) would head back to NXC via the Cliftonville Curve. I believe the stock was used Monday to Friday on the rush hour East Grinstead service.

It was easier @ Bognor Regis, where there was a 'Carriage Siding between platforms 2 & 3, which meant that visiting excursions would be routed into platform 3, where the loco could uncouple and run round it's stock.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Piccadilly platforms 5 & 6 used once a day by the engine for the Harwich boat train. Never a Deltic, though (a class 45 usually).

A Stratford Class 37 in my day.

 

[6Gman]

A Stratford Class 37 in my day.

I was going to say that too - a highlight for spotters in the North West of England!

Should also mention that at a few locations the incoming locos were allowed to propel the empty stock out of the station into carriage sidings and vice versa. Certainly applied at Llandudno and Penzance.

 

[75A]

Should also mention that at a few locations the incoming locos were allowed to propel the empty stock out of the station into carriage sidings and vice versa. Certainly applied at Llandudno and Penzance.

This would also happen at Littlehampton & Eastbourne.
L'ton was where the stock of the Football Specials to Hove (Brighton & Hove Albion) would be taken, so 33's with 7 or 8 mk1's would be regular visitors on a Saturday afternoon.

 

[Magdalia]

Something that has been bugging me about Deltics (and other loco hauled trains on the ECML for that matter). At London Kings Cross the platforms all end at buffers, meaning the locomotive would be 'trapped' by the coaches. My question is how did the trains 'turn around' to come back north?

The original question was about Deltics at Kings Cross.

The subsequent discussion suggests a lack of appreciation of the uniqueness of Deltic operation.

The Deltics were a small fleet and there were ECML trains booked for Deltic haulage that had faster timings than those booked for Type 4s. Up to the introduction of HSTs the ECML long distance service was not regular interval, but designed to make maximum use of the Deltics, with everything else fitting around that.

There was an hourly loco-hauled Oxford service (some went to Birmingham and north) outside the peak; those trains merely got a locomotive dropping on the back of the stock and taking it out. The released locomotive would then usually work the next service.

As a result the ECML loco hauled service in general, and the Deltics in particular, could not be operated like this.

There were run round at some termini.

Deltics did very little running round at termini. Until HSTs were introduced the country end destinations were almost entirely Edinburgh, Newcastle and Leeds. Here the Deltic would detach from the stock in a through platform and go to the nearest depot, leaving something else to deal with the train.

In the twilight era of the Deltics some worked to and from Hull, and they made some use of the bay platforms at York, but my recollection is that the loco would be shunt released by the station pilot. I suspect that the same happened for Deltics at other locations, though unsure about Cleethorpes, I can't remember if they had a station pilot.

Should also mention that at a few locations the incoming locos were allowed to propel the empty stock out of the station into carriage sidings and vice versa.

This was a common mode of operation at seaside resorts, but the prospect of doing it with a Deltic is the stuff of nightmares.

 

[Gloster]

From the departure of the Class 03 from Weymouth around 1974 to the rebuilding of the station in 1987 it was necessary for loco-hauled trains to propel out to the Jersey Sidings to run around. Even afterwards I think that longer trains still had to.

 

[6Gman]

This was a common mode of operation at seaside resorts, but the prospect of doing it with a Deltic is the stuff of nightmares.

Why would it differ from, say, a Class 40?