Collision and derailment near Salisbury (Fisherton Tunnel) 31/10/21

[RPI]

Saw something on Facebook last night of two class 159s at Exeter st davids. Could exeter depot maintain them?

There appear to be more than 2 units doing the Exeter Gillingham shuttles, 2x6 car sets it would appear. Exeter can and do fuel the 159's (though it stopped for a while)

 

[MarkyT]

Saw something on Facebook last night of two class 159s at Exeter st davids. Could exeter depot maintain them?

Expect so. 158s are very similar units and GWR look after those at Exeter I think.

 

[L&Y Robert]

Initial reports said that a train "Struck an object". Have we established what the 'object' was yet?

 

[RPI]

On the Exeter Side of Salisbury are 159106+108 in a pair and 011+015 in a pair

 

[Signal Head]

Early 1980s era Salisbury ASC has a very early automatic route setting installation to assist the signallers in operating the NX panel and relay interlockings, using an experimental Southern Region system known as ERSE (electronic route setting equipment). My fear is that if sufficient of the first train had left the track in order for the track circuit to clear, then the automatic route setting could have stepped in to set the route for the following train immediately before anyone had any time to think, and because the track circuit was still showing clear, the signal would have cleared straight away as commanded.

Pictures of the signalling panel here:

Southern: Wessex (SW) / Salisbury | Signalling Photos

Southern: Wessex (SW) / Salisbury

photos.signalling.org

Interesting. I wasn't aware ERSE had been used to implement ARS, or even that it had that capability, I've only ever seen it used as a button processor/route selection & point calling system.

Incidentally (probably), the original ERSE kit here has been replaced with a Delphin system in the last couple of years.

 

[alxndr]

Oh, so we can rule out a SPAD then (of either train).

Nothing that suggests that has been said. There's simply not enough information (and probably won't be until the RAIB report). I haven't even seen any photographs clear enough to support the comment that the points were still set for the first train.

 

[spyinthesky]

Would it be possible for someone to summarise what we actually know at this stage, please. It would be nice to separate actual known fact from speculation.

I would summarise
1. There has been a collision between 2 trains.
2. There has been thus far no fatalities and injuries received are classed as non life threatening. Several casualties have been treated at SDH.
3. Everything else however true is still speculation.

 

[87electric]

Initial reports said that a train "Struck an object". Have we established what the 'object' was yet?

The question should be, “Who initially claimed an object was hit?”.

 

[swt_passenger]

The question should be, “Who initially claimed an object was hit?”.

Somebody with enough credibility to convince Network Rail to add it to their explanation?

 

[Suraggu]

The question should be, “Who initially claimed an object was hit?”.

This was reported widely on social media after that tyrell screenshot appeared. It stated that 1F30 has struck an object in Fisherton Tunnel.

 

[Dan17H]

To explain the route, attached are the Track Diagrams, to help dispel any untruths about layout.

 

[molecrochip]

The question should be, “Who initially claimed an object was hit?”.

It came from the initial log reported shared on twitter. There are now known inaccuracies in this as it refers to 1F30 on its side - which isn't the case based upon photos.

 

[norbitonflyer]

It came from the initial log reported shared on twitter. There are now known inaccuracies in this as it refers to 1F30 on its side - which isn't the case based upon photos.

Indeed, it shows the SWR unit (which would be 1L30) at 45 degrees, but the GWR unit appears to be upright.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

This is what Salisbury signalling panel looked like 30 years ago, for anyone interested.

 

[thejuggler]

Less than 24 hours since the incident why the rush for facts by media?

BBC reporting as fact the 7 minutes between the first unit being derailed and the second hitting it, but caveating the train hitting something by using the word 'believed'.

Is the 7 minutes now proven fact?

 

[Suraggu]

It came from the initial log reported shared on twitter. There are now known inaccuracies in this as it refers to 1F30 on its side - which isn't the case based upon photos.

Indeed, although reading that screenshot it appears that was the first report. From my time in control when information was given you put out what had been advised to yourselves. Then afterwards clarification and corrections can be made in separate log posts. This is crucial in investigations such as this.

 

[MarkyT]

Interesting. I wasn't aware ERSE had been used to implement ARS, or even that it had that capability, I've only ever seen it used as a button processor/route selection & point calling system.

Incidentally (probably), the original ERSE kit here has been replaced with a Delphin system in the last couple of years.

I haven't any proof and could be entirely wrong, but a vague recollection of a conversation decades ago came to mind. Yes 'panel processor' functionality was certainly a significant benefit of ERSE, saving countless relays and wires, but equally, electronic or processor-based systems are a prerequisite for any form of automation.

Even without ARS functionality, signallers become accustomed to setting routes very quickly, often 'oversetting' into occupied sections once the points are free to move (which is allowed by the systems) and fully trusting track circuits and interlocking to prevent any dangerous early clearing of signals.

 

[norbitonflyer]

It came from the initial log reported shared on twitter. There are now known inaccuracies in this as it refers to 1F30 on its side - which isn't the case based upon photos.

It would appear that it was 1L53 that was tilted over. I have seen no phoots of the GWR train in its side

 

[bnm]

On the Exeter Side of Salisbury are 159106+108 in a pair and 011+015 in a pair

And another 159 parked up at Yeovil Junction. Unable to be utilised as low on fuel.

 

[357]

Those of us who work in the industry or are familiar with the transportation sector, or any sector that deals with major incidents (or on the railway even major disruption) will know that the initial reports tend to have inaccurate information in them and are updated as time goes on. Considering the chaos in the control room at that time, it is to be understood. The person giving the information on the phone might also not have been the easiest to understand given the situation.

I said to someone the other day that if a staff member making an emergency call remembers to say "This is an emergency call" then they have done more than 90% of emergency calls I have dealt with.

 

[JamesT]

BBC news reporting the driver of the SWR has suffered ‘life-changing’ injuries.

 

[The_Van]

Itv news just saying no evidence of an object being struck.

 

[norbitonflyer]

The photo of where the trains ended upwould indicate to me that the Waterloo train was going quite fast, it has almost completely entered the tunnel. Maybe it was fortuitous that the derailed train was leaning over so as to give more room inside the tunnel in effect. Or maybe just the kinetic energy of the colliding train had to go somewhere.

In the pictures the GWR train is upright - it is the SWR train which is leaning over. As to whether either train was off the rails before the collision, there are only unsubstaniated assertions.

 

[357]

BBC news reporting the driver of the SWR has suffered ‘life-changing’ injuries.

Do you have a link. The article I am reading says minor injuries. ( https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-59116800 )

BBC also reporting "We know both trains weren't going too fast" but does not cite a source.

Martin Frobisher, Network Rail's safety and engineering director, said it was too early to say what had caused the collision and they were "hugely relieved" no-one was seriously injured.
He said they could not say if the first train hitting an object caused the collision.

 

[2192]

1. If Clapham yard has no fuelling facilities for 158/159 DMUs, is Stewarts Lane or Selhurst a possibility?
2. 158's and 159's are much the same, apart from paint. Could one good unit be made out of the two damaged ones?

 

[JN114]

158's and 159's are much the same, apart from paint. Could one good unit be made out of the two damaged ones?

Theoretically, yes.

 

[snookertam]

Even if signals were black, you’d expect the SWR service to have reacted to the AWS magnet warnings it will have received? Something still doesn’t sound right about this.

This is what I’m thinking. A lot definitely still missing here.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

1. If Clapham yard has no fuelling facilities for 158/159 DMUs, is Stewarts Lane or Selhurst a possibility?
2. 158's and 159's are much the same, apart from paint. Could one good unit be made out of the two damaged ones?

There 3 damaged units - 2 GWR 158s and 1 SWR 159. Time will tell what the future holds for those and how many of the vehicles are repairable etc.

 

[Sleepy]

Do you have a link. The article I am reading says minor injuries. ( https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-59116800 )

BBC also reporting "We know both trains weren't going too fast" but does not cite a source.

Martin Frobisher, Network Rail's safety and engineering director, said it was too early to say what had caused the collision and they were "hugely relieved" no-one was seriously injured.
He said they could not say if the first train hitting an object caused the collision.

ITV lunchtime bulletin also stated this about driver.

 

[backontrack]

Awful news. I have to admit that when I saw the photos, my initial reaction was that people must've died, so that they haven't is an incalculable relief, but a traumatising event nevertheless and I hope that all involved (especially both crews) are in good hands. Although the reports that the SWR driver is seriously injured is awful to hear.