Derby - Stoke-on-Trent EMR bus service

[James101]

Today I caught the 16:45 EMR service from Derby to Stoke and wonder if anyone can shed some light on this odd service.

It doesn’t appear on the pdf timetables from EMR’s website but is on journey planners. On the face of it, it fills in a gap in the otherwise hourly timetable at what should be a reasonably busy time.

I was expecting it to run as an express, non-stop to Stoke, as that the only calling point on journey planners. In practice, the coach diverted to Tutbury & Hatton and Uttoxeter. Both significant deviations from the A50 involving double-back running. The coach skipped Blythe Bridge and Longton and arrived dot on time (18:17) to Stoke. All 5 passengers who boarded at Derby alighted at Stoke and no-one boarded on route.

My question is - should the coach have served the intermediate stations or not? It’s not possible to purchase advance tickets for the intermediate stations and I can’t imagine how anyone would be aware of it calling , indeed I can’t find any intermediate timing points. Also why serve some but not all stations along the way? On the other hand, if the coach had mistakenly called at wrong points, how was it dot on time at Stoke? A direct journey would have surely arrived much sooner?

 

[Llandudno]

Today I caught the 16:45 EMR service from Derby to Stoke and wonder if anyone can shed some light on this odd service.

It doesn’t appear on the pdf timetables from EMR’s website but is on journey planners. On the face of it, it fills in a gap in the otherwise hourly timetable at what should be a reasonably busy time.

I was expecting it to run as an express, non-stop to Stoke, as that the only calling point on journey planners. In practice, the coach diverted to Tutbury & Hatton and Uttoxeter. Both significant deviations from the A50 involving double-back running. The coach skipped Blythe Bridge and Longton and arrived dot on time (18:17) to Stoke. All 5 passengers who boarded at Derby alighted at Stoke and no-one boarded on route.

My question is - should the coach have served the intermediate stations or not? It’s not possible to purchase advance tickets for the intermediate stations and I can’t imagine how anyone would be aware of it calling , indeed I can’t find any intermediate timing points. Also why serve some but not all stations along the way? On the other hand, if the coach had mistakenly called at wrong points, how was it dot on time at Stoke? A direct journey would have surely arrived much sooner?

When (if?) are EMR going to reinstate the hourly train service on Crewe - Derby?

 

[43055]

Today I caught the 16:45 EMR service from Derby to Stoke and wonder if anyone can shed some light on this odd service.

It doesn’t appear on the pdf timetables from EMR’s website but is on journey planners. On the face of it, it fills in a gap in the otherwise hourly timetable at what should be a reasonably busy time.

I was expecting it to run as an express, non-stop to Stoke, as that the only calling point on journey planners. In practice, the coach diverted to Tutbury & Hatton and Uttoxeter. Both significant deviations from the A50 involving double-back running. The coach skipped Blythe Bridge and Longton and arrived dot on time (18:17) to Stoke. All 5 passengers who boarded at Derby alighted at Stoke and no-one boarded on route.

My question is - should the coach have served the intermediate stations or not? It’s not possible to purchase advance tickets for the intermediate stations and I can’t imagine how anyone would be aware of it calling , indeed I can’t find any intermediate timing points. Also why serve some but not all stations along the way? On the other hand, if the coach had mistakenly called at wrong points, how was it dot on time at Stoke? A direct journey would have surely arrived much sooner?

Well that's 4 more passengers from Monday. As far as I can tell it goes via Tutbury most days. The route out of Derby is different sometimes as well either going via Peartree or straight to the A38 at Marketon

When (if?) are EMR going to reinstate the hourly train service on Crewe - Derby?

Probably never been as 'temporally removed' for 2 years and will continue until December. Every other route seems to have a relatively normal timetable restored in may.

You wouldn't of thought this was a regularly full 2 coach service 3 years ago.

 

[louis97]

Well that's 4 more passengers from Monday. As far as I can tell it goes via Tutbury most days. The route out of Derby is different sometimes as well either going via Peartree or straight to the A38 at Marketon


Probably never been as 'temporally removed' for 2 years and will continue until December. Every other route seems to have a relatively normal timetable restored in may.

You wouldn't of thought this was a regularly full 2 coach service 3 years ago.

At present it is down to return in the December 2023 timetable, EMR certainly bid it to Network Rail.

 

[DDB]

EMR are appalling at putting the right data in for buses. The Spondon rail replacement bus was wrong (NOT listed as calling at Spondon) for an entire timetable period. I got it half fixed by bumping into the EMR planner or a train and telling them in person. No other route worked to raise it with them.

 

[Llandudno]

At present it is down to return in the December 2023 timetable, EMR certainly bid it to Network Rail.

Let’s hope so along with the missing 0851 Liverpool - Norwich

 

[Watershed]

I wouldn't hold out much hope purely from what's been bid for Dec 23. That's very much a "best case" scenario, and they can always reduce the timetable before it starts (indeed there's been many occasions where just that has happened at EMR and other TOCs).

 

[louis97]

I wouldn't hold out much hope purely from what's been bid for Dec 23. That's very much a "best case" scenario, and they can always reduce the timetable before it starts (indeed there's been many occasions where just that has happened at EMR and other TOCs).

Certainly could be subject to change, but this is the first time the train has even made it into the best case scenario post covid!

 

[Llandudno]

The (Nottingham) Derby - Crewe service does (anecdotally) seem much busier these days compared to say, 10 years ago.

I guess the reason for this could be:

Much better rolling stock, now mainly 170s compared to on many occasions a single 153 unit
Useful route for split ticketing and cheaper east-west fares than other routes
Awful reliability and overcrowding between Sheffield and Manchester so some East Midlands to north west England travelling via Derby/Crewe
Disruption pre-planned otherwise on other routes, Crewe-Derby can be a useful alternative
General increase in leisure traffic across the country
Later evening trains, still not very late, but better than they were

Just need the couple of ‘temporary’ 2 hour gaps filling during the week and, of course, in an ideal world (never going to happen!) a train one hour later in the evening plus some trains before 2pm on Sundays!

 

[louis97]

Just need the couple of ‘temporary’ 2 hour gaps filling during the week and, of course, in an ideal world (never going to happen!) a train one hour later in the evening plus some trains before 2pm on Sundays!

You'll be waiting for the resignalling for the latter - who knows when that will be!

 

[70014IronDuke]

Today I caught the 16:45 EMR service from Derby to Stoke and wonder if anyone can shed some light on this odd service.

16.45? You'd think this would be one of the best loaded trains - if it were a train - of the day ex-Derby.

 

[station_road]

You'll be waiting for the resignalling for the latter - who knows when that will be!

Sunday morning trains between Derby and Crewe were in the original franchise award to Abellio in 2019, although I appreciate this is no longer worth the paper it was printed on! Would have needed a second shift for signallers and crossing keepers between Derby and Stoke on Sundays.

 

[Watershed]

You'll be waiting for the resignalling for the latter - who knows when that will be!

To be fair, it wouldn't be impossible for the boxes to open earlier - it's happened on other lines. There is just no funding forthcoming for it at the moment.

 

[mjc]

Does anybody know why there are the two random gaps in the timetable each way, including the 16:45 from Derby? I’ve got to go to Newcastle for work in a couple of months and it’s already over 4 hour journey time without the extra slowness of the bus rather than train for the last leg…

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Does anybody know why there are the two random gaps in the timetable each way, including the 16:45 from Derby? I’ve got to go to Newcastle for work in a couple of months and it’s already over 4 hour journey time without the extra slowness of the bus rather than train for the last leg…

Possibly it's the max they can run with 4 units? Although haven't done a proper check of that yet so I might be missing something.

 

[mjc]

Possibly it's the max they can run with 4 units? Although haven't done a proper check of that yet so I might be missing something.

Interesting point, thanks @pokemonsuper9 , so effectively that’s the price we pay for the extension of the service through Nottingham to Newark Castle; not so much a service improvement as a service exchange? Maybe if they could speed it up a bit (2.5hrs for <90 miles, is that one of the slowest bits of the network?) they could close the gaps?

 

[Watershed]

Does anybody know why there are the two random gaps in the timetable each way, including the 16:45 from Derby? I’ve got to go to Newcastle for work in a couple of months and it’s already over 4 hour journey time without the extra slowness of the bus rather than train for the last leg…

One of the five circuits/diagrams needed for a full hourly service remains withdrawn. Unfortunately this line really has drawn the short straw, continuing to see a Covid-era timetable as well as a pathetic Sunday service (no trains before 2pm!). The only saving grace is that it now has 170s (most of the time), but even these are ~20 year old hand-me-downs which are in in a pretty bad state.

Interesting point, thanks @pokemonsuper9 , so effectively that’s the price we pay for the extension of the service through Nottingham to Newark Castle; not so much a service improvement as a service exchange? Maybe if they could speed it up a bit (2.5hrs for <90 miles, is that one of the slowest bits of the network?) they could close the gaps?

It's not directly to do with that extension, though that's certainly not helped. There's not much scope to speed up the service - the linespeed just isn't that high in most places, and 170s aren't exactly the fastest units to accelerate. Longport has already been taken out of the service yet the timetable/diagrams remain far too tight to be reliable - if anything, things should be made slightly more generous.

There's a turnround of less than 10 minutes at the Newark end, which leaves just a couple of minutes of recovery time as the train has to draw forward beyond the crossover, reverse, and then shunt into the other platform, a process that takes around 6-7 minutes in total.

The reversal at Derby allows just 4 minutes - the minimum required - not helped by crossing the entire layout (in the eastbound direction) and the change of traincrew that takes place on many services.

And then there's only around 12 minutes' turnround at the Crewe end, with services being scheduled to arrive 1 minute before the Crewe-Birmingham via Stoke service leaves. With the near 4-mile single line section from Barthomley Jn into Crewe, services running anything more than a couple of minutes late are thus routinely held to allow the Birmingham service to leave on time.

To improve the reliability you'd want to have modern, high-acceleration units (like the GA Flirts or Northern/TfW CAF Civities), as well as a proper turnback facility at Newark (to allow trains to reverse within one of the platforms, rather than having to shunt). If you were really splashing out you could also redouble Barthomley-Crewe (which is a huge bottleneck whenever the Stafford-Crewe via Madeley route is shut), but you'd probably be lucky to get change from £100m at inflated UK rail industry prices

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I am concerned if calls are being missed. I have used the bus a small number of times, from Uttoxeter to Blythe Bridge, and make sure the driver knows I want to go to Blythe Bridge. For four months recently the road at Blythe Bridge station was closed, I saw nothing of what the revised arrangements were. Then again the bus wasn't advertised as calling at Blythe Bridge anyway.

The intermediate calls were correctly entered on/from 31 May 2023.

Timetable Period	Train Service	Notes
5 September to 11 December 2021	20 out of 32 to operate, two pm peak buses Derby to Stoke	M-F buses shown with station calls
12 December 2021 to 26 February 2022	26 out of 32 to operate, one pm peak bus Derby to Stoke	M-F bus shown with station calls
27 February 2022 to 14 May 2022	26 out of 32 to operate, one pm peak bus Derby to Stoke	M-F bus shown with station calls
15 May 2022 to 10 December 2022	26 out of 32 to operate, one pm peak bus Derby to Stoke	Bus shown in full in pdf. Intermediate stations not shown in online journey planners, shown in Charlwood House in WTT column only. Not shown on departure screen at Uttoxeter - but it did run
11 December 2022 to 20 May 2023	26 out of 32 to operate, one pm peak bus Derby to Stoke	Bus not shown at all in pdf, online journey planners (but added later) or departure screens. In Charlwood House shown in WTT column throughout but terminii only in public columns.
21 May 2023 to 9 December 2023	26 out of 32 to operate, one pm peak bus Derby to Stoke	Bus not shown at all in pdf, uncertain re online journey planners and departure screens. In Charlwood House shown in WTT column throughout but terminii only in public columns.
^	^	UPDATED 31 May 2023 online and in Charlwood House public column to shown intermediate calls

 

[43055]

Yes noticed the other day that it came up with the bus at 1645 on the ticket machine at Tutbury. Previously it gave a wild journey with 2 changes around that time.

 

[Joey Beauchamp]

I have found this thread very enlightening as I want to tick off Peartree while I'm in Derby for the football. I will try catching the 16.45 bus and getting the train back.