Detonator Placer Symbol on Signal Box Diagrams

[Dogspike]

Greetings to all
I’ve just joined the group so here is my first question,
I am currently hand drawing a Signal Box Diagram on linen paper that is of a style that some Diagrams were drawn by in the late 1800s and early 1900s, it comprises of a double track mainline with a double track junction a trailing crossover and a double track to single track junction this is all controlled by a 30 lever frame, two of the levers one for the up and one for the down line control Detonator Placers what I need to know is, What was a common style of the earliest symbols of Detonator Placers drawn on Diagrams that would suit my era ? The earliest I have found so far of is what I call the , double Lollipop type “as they look like Lollipops” and was on a 1938 Diagram, I have found one earlier with the Diagram dated 1906 but I’m not sure if this is something that someone had penciled in a a later date as the letters on the wording don’t match the others on the drawing so until I can prove its genuine I won’t copy the style , any help in any way I would greatly appreciate.

 

[zwk500]

Welcome!

FWIW, here's the current NR standards: (I haven't missed off d), it's missing from the standard, but you can work out it's Double Shot, Normally OFF)

However, given the early era you are looking at it's entirely possible these symbols weren't standardised across the country. If you could give an indication of the company/area you're looking at then somebody with better knowledge of that area may be able to help.

 

[Dogspike]

Welcome!

FWIW, here's the current NR standards:View attachment 114745 (I haven't missed off d), it's missing from the standard, but you can work out it's Double Shot, Normally OFF)

However, given the early era you are looking at it's entirely possible these symbols weren't standardised across the country. If you could give an indication of the company/area you're looking at then somebody with better knowledge of that area may be able to help.

Thanks zwk500
I do have the details of the NR standards like I said “they look like Lollipops“ do you know when these icons/symbols were first implemented the earliest I found was in a 1938 diagram so I assume they were being used for sometime before that date, as for the company/area at this stage I’m not fussed as I haven’t had much luck in finding different types so I would like to see anything from any company in the years between 1890 to 1920 so if anyone has knowledge on what a particular company used then I would have more choices

 

[Gloster]

That is indeed an obscure area. I would think that each railway and signalling contractor probably had their own design, although it was quite likely that there only a handful of basic designs, but with different style or details. One problem might be that a box where it was considered worthwhile having det placers would often have been resignalled and given a new diagram at a later date.

The only thing I can think of off the top of my head is trying to find images of such diagrams, which you have probably done. Have you tried the lymmobservatory.net site which may have some older diagrams?

 

[pdeaves]

penciled in a a later date as the letters on the wording don’t match the others on the drawing so until I can prove its genuine

Well, it will be genuine, but may not originate from the era of interest. Drawings were regularly modified throughout their life, rather than creating a new one every time there's a relatively minor change.

 

[Dogspike]

That is indeed an obscure area. I would think that each railway and signalling contractor probably had their own design, although it was quite likely that there only a handful of basic designs, but with different style or details. One problem might be that a box where it was considered worthwhile having det placers would often have been resignalled and given a new diagram at a later date.

The only thing I can think of off the top of my head is trying to find images of such diagrams, which you have probably done. Have you tried the lymmobservatory.net site which may have some older diagrams?

Hi Gloster yes I’ve been through every one at the lymmobservatory and the odd auction site I would like to see more original Diagrams of Saxby and Farmer a Mckenzie and Holland ect but I’m running out of ideas of where to look

Well, it will be genuine, but may not originate from the era of interest. Drawings were regularly modified throughout their life, rather than creating a new one every time there's a relatively minor change.

Hi pdeaves
Yes your are correct I can see I used the wrong word I should have written original not genuine my bad.

 

[matchmaker]

I've had a look at "Lewis - Railway signal engineering in the mechanical era" (1910) and although detonator places are mentioned, there are no diagrams unfortunately.

 

[Dogspike]

I've had a look at "Lewis - Railway signal engineering in the mechanical era" (1910) and although detonator places are mentioned, there are no diagrams unfortunately.

Thanks matchmaker been there done that I’ve got a Lewis book great stuff they are the reference books I used when I started to design my lever frame and interlocking

 

[Ploughman]

Had a look at the NERA https://ner.org.uk/ Line diagram for Selby Station dated around 1914.
That indicates possibly 3 styles of Fog Apparatus
Fog Apparatus. Indicated by a Thick line parallel to the rail.
Claytons Fog Apparatus. Indicated by a Thick line at right angles to the rail.
Wake's Fog Apparatus. Indicated by a Thick line parallel to the rail.

 

[Dogspike]

Had a look at the NERA https://ner.org.uk/ Line diagram for Selby Station dated around 1914.
That indicates possibly 3 styles of Fog Apparatus
Fog Apparatus. Indicated by a Thick line parallel to the rail.
Claytons Fog Apparatus. Indicated by a Thick line at right angles to the rail.
Wake's Fog Apparatus. Indicated by a Thick line parallel to the rail.

Hi Ploughman I tried the link to the NERA but couldn’t find Selby Stn anyhow you mentioned the Clayton’s Detonator placer was represented buy a thick line right angles to the rail dose this thick line have a radius (rounded) end to it the Midland railway used a symbol similar to this so now I’m wondering if they used Clayton’s equipment

Greetings to all
I have kindly been given some more copies of original Signal Box Diagrams these are of the Midland Railway and are dated 1897 , 1902 ,1927 I have one 1906 all show Detonator Placers of the same shape and size, so now that I have more proof of these being used in my chosen era I can now safely add this type of symbol to the drawing