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Do 'Guest' locomotives arrive with their tender full of coal?

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Railcar

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AS the title says, do the steam locomotives with a tender that come as 'guests' to a preserved railway event, come with a full tender of coal from their 'home' railway? Obviously, if they have travelled to the preserved line on National Rail tracks, they will need coal for the journey, but is it regarded as courtious if the 'guest' comes with fuel for running on the preserved line?
 
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Jan Mayen

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How much would a tender of coal cost? Come to that, how much does it cost to hire a loco in the first place?
 

En

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that would be a contractual matter surely ? depending on the 'dampness' ( to pinch a term from commercial aircraft chartering) of the operating arrangements ...
 

Fragezeichnen

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I can see you are trying to carry over the car-based idea of returning the vehicle with a full tank of petrol, but whilst I have no direct knowledge I don't think it makes any sense for steam locomotives.

These days due to the non-availability of traditional sources of coal and rising costs railways use a wide variety of different coal sources, including mixes of regular and artificial coal, which requires different firing techniques. I can imagine the crew at the receiving railway being not exactly thrilled when faced with both an unfamiliar engine and unfamiliar coal.

The haulage company would probably also not be pleased about having to transport a very heavy engine with unneeded extra weight on top, not to mention the risk of flying coal in transit.
 

D Williams

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How much would a tender of coal cost? Come to that, how much does it cost to hire a loco in the first place?
Coal costs about £400 per tonne. The coal capacity depends on the design of the loco i.e. half a tonne for a very small industrial shunting type , seven for a black five. Loco hire rates are subject to negotiation between the owner and the hirer, there's no defined scale of charges but usually if it's a long term hire the daily rate is lower than ,for say, a weekend hire to cover a gala. Ex industrial types are cheaper than those from the railway companies. By way of example a class 4 type on long term hire costs in the region of £600 to £700 per steaming day. An ex NCB Austerity would be less but not by much. From the owners viewpoint setting a daily hire cost for a steam loco is something of a shot in the dark as over the nominal ten years between major overhauls repair costs can increase for all sorts of reasons. There are no profits to be made! Also some railways are much kinder to hire locos than others. The intention is that the loco , one way or the other, must earn enough in this ten year period to cover the costs of repairs and overhaul.

Locos usually arrive by road with whatever coal is left in the bunker / tender after the last steaming. This will not be a lot, sometimes nothing. The tanks will be empty but, depending on the size , not always the boiler.

To the above costs must be added that of transport to and from the hiring railway that again fall to the hirer. I can't quote any recent costs but think in thousands.

This is why steam gala ticket prices are so high!
 

Fragezeichnen

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Usually there is an 'owner's representative' who can give technical advice and make sure no mistreatment occurs.
Both driver and fireman need route knowledge and unlike with modern traction there is no formal traction-specific training.
 

778

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About 2 months ago an engine visited a preserved railway for it's autumn gala (although it was used for some normal service trains). The ashpan had not been cleaned out and the loco caused 6 lineside fires on the first day it was steamed.
 

Dunfanaghy Rd

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Bear in mind that some guest locos do not come straight from their home line. Given the cost of road haulage a direct run from visit A to visit B can make good sense. As far as I aware an empty bunker on arrival is normal.
Pat
 

43055

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Do the visiting locos come with a driver & fireman from the "home" railway?
Depends on the circumstances as I have seen both locos with crew's from the home railway (with a local pilot) and others with just a representative and local crew.
 

Mcr Warrior

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The ashpan had not been cleaned out and the loco caused 6 lineside fires on the first day it was steamed.
What's the cause of the lineside fires?
Hot ashes overspilling onto the trackside?
 

D Williams

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What's the cause of the lineside fires?
Hot ashes overspilling onto the trackside?
More likely a problem with the spark arrestor. The ashpan / smokebox would have been checked on arrival and either cleaned then or by the prep crew. If they went off with the ashpan full then they should be driving diesels.
 

norbitonflyer

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I can imagine the crew at the receiving railway being not exactly thrilled when faced with both an unfamiliar engine and unfamiliar coal.
If it needs special coal that can be delivered separately. And any special techniques for driving and firing the loco will be the responsibility of the owner's repersentative if there is a local driver - if the loco's regular driver is driving there will need to be a local pilotman on board who knows the road.

The report on the recent collision at Aviemore involving a visiting locomotive noted that that a representative of the owners was on the footplate but the actual driver was a member of staff of the railway being visited.
 

Fragezeichnen

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You seem to have taken my quoted statement as the opposite of what I meant.
As you said usually the local crew will drive, so they would prefer to use local coal.
 

norbitonflyer

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You seem to have taken my quoted statement as the opposite of what I meant.
As you said usually the local crew will drive, so they would prefer to use local coal.
Probably, but it will also depend on what coal works best in that loco. Different locos were designed to work on different grades of coal, depending on what was available in the coalfields their original railways served. The best coal for raising steam was, I understand, found in South Wales, and GWR locos were designed to run on it. Locos of the LMS and LNER were designed with bigger fireboxes as they were expected to run on lower-grade Yorkshire coal. This meant GWR locos didn't take kindly to coal from other coalfields (as evidenced in some of the "locomotive exchanges" of 1948)
As is often the case, the Rev Awdry covered the issue: Henry's ailments were cured when he was first provided with "special Welsh coal" and later rebuilt to run on the same coal as the rest of the fleet.
 

D Williams

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Probably, but it will also depend on what coal works best in that loco. Different locos were designed to work on different grades of coal, depending on what was available in the coalfields their original railways served. The best coal for raising steam was, I understand, found in South Wales, and GWR locos were designed to run on it. Locos of the LMS and LNER were designed with bigger fireboxes as they were expected to run on lower-grade Yorkshire coal. This meant GWR locos didn't take kindly to coal from other coalfields (as evidenced in some of the "locomotive exchanges" of 1948)
As is often the case, the Rev Awdry covered the issue: Henry's ailments were cured when he was first provided with "special Welsh coal" and later rebuilt to run on the same coal as the rest of the fleet.
That luxury has long gone. Nowadays you have to burn whatever you can get hence the large amounts of smoke at gala events this year.
 

bleeder4

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That luxury has long gone. Nowadays you have to burn whatever you can get hence the large amounts of smoke at gala events this year.
Indeed. I was on a Saphos tour recently and asked the fireman where the coal came from. It had come over from Kazakhstan.
 

LWTrailfan2004

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Hi, volunteer from North Norfolk Railway here.

When Betton Grange arrived with us, it had a small amount of coal in its tender, but certainly less than a full load. I assume that after it's last use on the prior railway it was at, they leave whatever remains for the next railway
 

En

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If it needs special coal that can be delivered separately. And any special techniques for driving and firing the loco will be the responsibility of the owner's repersentative if there is a local driver - if the loco's regular driver is driving there will need to be a local pilotman on board who knows the road.

The report on the recent collision at Aviemore involving a visiting locomotive noted that that a representative of the owners was on the footplate but the actual driver was a member of staff of the railway being visited.
I suspect the driving etc stuff is as you state youneed both 'traction' and ' route knwoe,ldge' even if there isn;t the explict 'traction knowledge' requirements that have become the norm since the introduction of diesel and electric traction
so what does this mean Locla footplate crew with a Owner;s representative or the loco's normal footplate crew with a pilot Driver / traction inspector
,uch the smae as where the is a traction / route mismatch on the 'real ' railway network
 
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