Do train dispatchers have to watch the train leave until it's out of sight?

[Sad Sprinter]

I recall a few years ago, I was hanging around Liverpool Street station on my way home, admiring a class 90 and a rake of MK3s. To my delight, the as the guard blew the final whistle, the train began to groan out of the station, starting its journey into East Anglia. Although I wasn't the only one watching the train, the guards, I noticed, kept their eyes firmly on the train until it had rounded the corner out of Shoreditch and was finally out of sight from its dispatchers at Liverpool Street. Recently, I noticed guards at Clapham Junction do a similar thing, watching the Reading train they dispatched leave the station until it had finally rounded the curve before Wandsworth Town and had passed out of view.

Do guards have to watch the train unless it suddenly stops or something? Or do they do so for more sentimental reasons?

 

[class444 fan]

Yes i beileve its a rule book requirement.

 

[Poseydon]

I don't know about British railways, but in many post-Soviet countries every railway worker, be it station staff, points operator (we have manual, but electrically interlocked points in some places), crossing keeper etc. has to monitor passing trains for things like open doors, passengers' heads sticking out of windows, braking hoses not being firmly seated in the hanger on the last coach etc. I'm fairly sure that even co-drivers of passing trains (trains are crewed by two people there) are supposed to look out of their window and check if everything is OK, and if not call the driver of the other train to let them know something is wrong.

 

[800001]

Train dispatchers watch the train until it has passed the end of the platform.

 

[FGW_DID]

Yes, they do watch the train out of the platform, not out of sight. They have to be ready to emergency stop the train should the need arise.
As an example, in the days of the slam door (even with CDL) there was always the chance some “late running Larry” would attempt to open a door and the door would end up “on the catch”.

 

[MrJeeves]

Recently, I noticed guards at Clapham Junction do a similar thing, watching the Reading train they dispatched leave the station until it had finally rounded the curve before Wandsworth Town and had passed out of view.

I hope the guard isn't watching the train leave the station and pass out of view because they should be on board it!

I assume you mean dispatchers? The platform-train interface (PTI) is the most risky area of the railway, I would say, and poses the most risk as trains are arriving and departing. Dispatchers should observe the PTI to look for things like someone trying to board after the train is dispatched, or someone with clothing stuck between the doors.

I don't realistically know how you'd stop the train these days. Blow your whistle and wave your arms around used to be the go-to, I believe, but it's not much help if the on-board guard is in the middle cab and something happens at the back of the train, is it? Guards also don't generally stick their head out of the window as the train leaves either for safety reasons now (most trains probably can't even have the windows opened these days!) so how likely is it that something like this would even be noticed?

 

[NSEWonderer]

Think there was an incident that prompted this to be more pursued. The case of Simon Slade was drilled into us during Dispatch training.

Two articles linked below on the incident:

Simon Slade Incident Gidea Park

The next night the police woke them with the devastating news.

They said he’d been the victim of an accident at Gidea Park station, in East London. George says: “It was a dreadful shock. We just couldn’t understand how such a thing could happen.”

After a night out – celebrating his new job and buying a flat – he and two colleagues went to the station to catch their separate trains home.

CCTV showed that as his friends’ train pulled away, Simon jokingly sprinted alongside, waving. But then he tripped and fell between the platform and the train on to the tracks. Unnoticed by the station’s dispatcher, another three trains went through the station before he was found. He was only discovered when a guard heard his cries of agony. He’d suffered terrible injuries and catastrophic blood loss and died on the platform as paramedics tried to save him.

The Rail Accident and Investigation Branch usually examines incidents on railways. But because Simon’s death was mistakenly reported at first as a trespasser on the line, the RAIB hadn’t investigated. Jean, George, and Simon’s brothers, David and Matt complained to the Office of Rail Regulation but received a reply stating: “The accident was the result of a celebration when judgment was affected by alcohol.”

The station met safety guidelines and there would be no investigation. George says: “The rail authorities are saying that Simon died because he’d had a few drinks. That is not true.

2007 Gidea Park Incident

The inquest into his death heard that the One Railway employee in charge of ensuring the train left the station safely was answering a call in his office. He stayed there unaware that Mr Slade lay dying outside because he was too intimidated to be out on the platform alone at night.

 

[Krokodil]

Dispatchers must watch the train clear the platform. This is a rule book requirement.

There isn't such a blanket rule book requirement for guards, it is left up to the individual company's instructions. Some companies require it, others don't.

 

[gka472l]

Yes, we watch until the rear of the train has left the platform.....

 

[sir_gummerz]

I recall a few years ago, I was hanging around Liverpool Street station on my way home, admiring a class 90 and a rake of MK3s. To my delight, the as the guard blew the final whistle, the train began to groan out of the station, starting its journey into East Anglia. Although I wasn't the only one watching the train, the guards, I noticed, kept their eyes firmly on the train until it had rounded the corner out of Shoreditch and was finally out of sight from its dispatchers at Liverpool Street. Recently, I noticed guards at Clapham Junction do a similar thing, watching the Reading train they dispatched leave the station until it had finally rounded the curve before Wandsworth Town and had passed out of view.

Do guards have to watch the train unless it suddenly stops or something? Or do they do so for more sentimental reasons?

I was a dispatcher for just over a year, (not for GA) we were trained to watch the train until the rear left the end of the platform, however it was often not followed by many of my colleagues

 

[Horizon22]

I was a dispatcher for just over a year, (not for GA) we were trained to watch the train until the rear left the end of the platform, however it was often not followed by many of my colleagues

Yes its certainly very easy to tell sloppy/poor dispatch when you have done it before. Doors closed, RA given and then 1-2 seconds and you seen dispatchers walking back to the office / off the platform.

 

[12LDA28C]

Yes its certainly very easy to tell sloppy/poor dispatch when you have done it before. Doors closed, RA given and then 1-2 seconds and you seen dispatchers walking back to the office / off the platform.

And they'd be held to account if there was any kind of incident further along the platform. Not really worth risking your job / safety of passengers for.

 

[sprunt]

Dispatchers should observe the PTI to look for things like someone trying to board after the train is dispatched, or someone with clothing stuck between the doors.

Is clothing stuck between the doors a serious issue? Obviously it's not going to do the clothing much good, and it would be inconvenient for whoever's wearing it but it doesn't seen intuitive that it's a safety issue, and certainly not something you'd stop the train for.

 

[Bayum]

Is clothing stuck between the doors a serious issue? Obviously it's not going to do the clothing much good, and it would be inconvenient for whoever's wearing it but it doesn't seen intuitive that it's a safety issue, and certainly not something you'd stop the train for.

What if the clothing is a scarf or bag that’s been trapped in the door as a passenger has alighted?

Woman dragged along platform after scarf caught in doors of train

A woman was nearly killed when her scarf got caught in the doors of a departing tube train and she was dragged along an underground platform, a report has revealed.
The woman, who had been trying to board the train, was pulled along the platform for about 10 metres before a member of staff grabbed her. She fell to the ground and the scarf was torn from her neck and carried into the tunnel by the train.
The incident at about 7pm on 3 February happened after the driver did not notice the knitted scarf was trapped in the doors and started moving the Piccadilly line train away from the platform at Holborn station in central London.
A tube worker on the platform did not alert the driver to the situation, the report from the Rail Accident Investigation Branch (RAIB) said, but tried to help the woman as she was pulled along.
The report said: “The passenger suffered injuries to her neck and back, but the actions of the member of staff may have saved her from being more badly hurt.”
The RAIB said the driver had been unable to see what was happening on the platform after the train started to move.
The report said the role of the station assistant who came to the passenger’s aid involved the safe dispatch of trains but that the equipment and procedures associated with the role did not enable him to intervene effectively in an emergency.
The RAIB said the last fatal accident of this type on the Underground – on 21 October 1997 – had occurred at the same location in similar circumstances and involved the same type of train.
In the 1997 incident a nine-year-old boy caught his anorak in a closing tube train door and was dragged along the platform and under the train.
However, the report into this year’s incident said: “There do not appear to be any factors associated with the location that could create any link between the 1997 and 2014 accidents.”
On the 2014 incident, the RAIB made a recommendation to London Underground“covering possible improvements to the means available to staff to stop trains from departing if an emergency occurs during the train dispatch process”.

Passenger dragged along platform after bag got stuck in train door

A passenger was seriously injured when her bag got caught in a train door, dragging her along the platform and on to the track, according to a new report into accidents.

The train driver did not spot the woman on CCTV cameras and pulled away, dragging her along, before she fell under the train at West Wickham station, south London, in April 2015.
Train operator Southeastern said offered support to the woman after the "terrible incident" in April 2015.

The train was driver-only operated, which means drivers are required to check platform CCTV monitors to ensure it is safe to depart stations.

It was being driven by a trainee driver under the supervision of an instructor but neither was aware that the passenger was stuck," the RAIB stated. Investigators were not able to establish why this was the case.
Tests showed that this could only occur if a passenger pressed the door-open button within a second of the driver initiating the door closure sequence.

The RAIB recommended that train operators and owners correct all door control systems which exhibit "the unsafe characteristics" found in this incident, and that guidance to staff dispatching trains is changed so they watch the doors while they are closing in addition to after they close.

A separate investigation into an incident involving a passenger being dragged along an Underground platform after getting her coat caught in a Tube train door is being carried out.

The woman ended up falling between the gap between two carriages of the Northern line train and was taken to hospital with serious arm and head injuries.

The incident at Clapham South station in south London happened on March 12 last year.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Is clothing stuck between the doors a serious issue? Obviously it's not going to do the clothing much good, and it would be inconvenient for whoever's wearing it but it doesn't seen intuitive that it's a safety issue, and certainly not something you'd stop the train for.

It is if the wearer is on the outside.

 

[EZJ]

Is clothing stuck between the doors a serious issue? Obviously it's not going to do the clothing much good, and it would be inconvenient for whoever's wearing it but it doesn't seen intuitive that it's a safety issue, and certainly not something you'd stop the train for.

It would be if the person with tge clothing stuck in the door was on the platform.

 

[sprunt]

Ah yes, of course. Duh.

 

[Horizon22]

And they'd be held to account if there was any kind of incident further along the platform. Not really worth risking your job / safety of passengers for.

Indeed. Some places there isn't the supervision or when they are getting assessed they do it completely by the book.

 

[King Lazy]

I don't know about British railways, but in many post-Soviet countries every railway worker, be it station staff, points operator (we have manual, but electrically interlocked points in some places), crossing keeper etc. has to monitor passing trains for things like open doors, passengers' heads sticking out of windows, braking hoses not being firmly seated in the hanger on the last coach etc. I'm fairly sure that even co-drivers of passing trains (trains are crewed by two people there) are supposed to look out of their window and check if everything is OK, and if not call the driver of the other train to let them know something is wrong.

Yes, it is required by the rulebook to observe trains where practicable for anything that may cause a danger to trains.

The rulebook gives a specific list of items such as doors open or not properly secured, insecure loads, fire, incorrect lighting etc.

You are supposed to contact the controlling signaller or the person in charge. In practical terms at a staffed station this would often be the dispatcher who would then arrange to have the train stopped.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Guards also don't generally stick their head out of the window as the train leaves either for safety reasons now

Northern guards on 150/1s do, but as you say, most trains don't have manual windows any more.

 

[renegademaster]

Having been at stations like Clapham , some guy walking on the edge slipping seems much more likely than someone getting dragged.

 

[Horizon22]

Having been at stations like Clapham , some guy walking on the edge slipping seems much more likely than someone getting dragged.

Another reason to keep observing the PTI then as the service departs.

 

[renegademaster]

Another reason to keep looking then.

Seems a reason to look towards the passengers not out towards London

 

[Horizon22]

Seems a reason to look towards the passengers not out towards London

Eh? You just said someone "walking on the edge slipping" is likely and that's exactly where the dispatcher would be looking anyway if they're doing it properly...

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Without naming any guilty parties I have witnessed guarded early morning services being dispatched by the dispatcher at their office door! I'm also aware of situations when lack of platform staff to deal with simultaneous departures led to the guard of one train being asked "to see themselves out". I suspect that these days such practices would not be accepted as both parties would be judged to be guilty of collusion in undermining safety procedures.

 

[jon0844]

It would come down to the agreed degraded dispatch options (but that won't include standing at an office door!). At some stations, if there's no platform staff then trains will have to self dispatch or not call.

Same for trains with non-working bodyside cameras. If they fail, some stations will have to be missed or the train cancelled completely.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Having been at stations like Clapham, some guy walking on the edge slipping seems much more likely than someone getting dragged.

To be honest a sheep slipping is more likely at Clapham - but I presume you're actually referring to Clapham Junction...

 

[geoffk]

Is clothing stuck between the doors a serious issue? Obviously it's not going to do the clothing much good, and it would be inconvenient for whoever's wearing it but it doesn't seen intuitive that it's a safety issue, and certainly not something you'd stop the train for.

But at the majority of stations there is no dispatcher. What factors are there to consider when a decision is made to employ a dispatcher? Platform curvature is presumably one, but there are station with sharply curved platforms, e.g. Shipley and Accrington, where there isn't one.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

But at the majority of stations there is no dispatcher. What factors are there to consider when a decision is made to employ a dispatcher? Platform curvature is presumably one, but there are station with sharply curved platforms, e.g. Shipley and Accrington, where there isn't one.

Volume of passengers is arguably the most significant factor in generating risk at the PTI. So that for example Bolton, even with fairly straight platforms, needs the presence of dispatchers.

 

[Towers]

Without naming any guilty parties I have witnessed guarded early morning services being dispatched by the dispatcher at their office door! I'm also aware of situations when lack of platform staff to deal with simultaneous departures led to the guard of one train being asked "to see themselves out". I suspect that these days such practices would not be accepted as both parties would be judged to be guilty of collusion in undermining safety procedures.

Guards being required to self dispatch at “staffed” locations isn’t particularly unusual, especially in these lean modern times of not filling vacancies. There are major stations where it would never be permitted to happen, but plenty of others where it is.