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Duplicated seat reservations TPE

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trainophile

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Just on the 12:16 from Haymarket to Manchester, and our booked seats have been claimed by someone else, who checked their e-ticket which seems to be correct. Is this a common thing on TPE? Our tickets were booked on Trainsplit.

Should have said, the overhead display hasn’t been updated from the inbound service so no clues there.
 
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Tazi Hupefi

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Just on the 12:16 from Haymarket to Manchester, and our booked seats have been claimed by someone else, who checked their e-ticket which seems to be correct. Is this a common thing on TPE? Our tickets were booked on Trainsplit.

Should have said, the overhead display hasn’t been updated from the inbound service so no clues there.
This is often either a case of fraud or miscommunication. It is exceptionally rare for seats to be double booked.

Scenario 1 is that the customer buys the e-ticket, gets the PDF/Google/Apple Wallet ticket and then fraudulently cancels and refunds - but presents the original tickets. This is a huge issue on Transpennine Express because of the lack of scanning.

Scenario 2 is that when the customer purchased the tickets (usually a while ago) the service they booked was actually cancelled or amended by TPE afterwards, normally due to engineering works or operational matters, and if it was reinstated or put back on sale, all sorts of issues can occur, depending on what messaging the customer has seen.
 

Trainguy34

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Or (very unlikely) Scenario 3: The 2 seats were booked at the same time and the booking system hadn't refreshed in time.
 

trainophile

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Thanks for the explanations. It’s a middle aged couple who seem quite upstanding (haha no pun intended, that would have been us if we hadn’t found alternative seats - still waiting to be turfed out of them though).

No sign of a guard, presumably hiding away. Only one toilet in service too. Power sockets not working. I’ve just remembered why I avoid TPE where possible.
 

OscarH

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Or (very unlikely) Scenario 3: The 2 seats were booked at the same time and the booking system hadn't refreshed in time.
The reservation system has some major issues but it is at least transactional

Just on the 12:16 from Haymarket to Manchester, and our booked seats have been claimed by someone else, who checked their e-ticket which seems to be correct. Is this a common thing on TPE? Our tickets were booked on Trainsplit.

Should have said, the overhead display hasn’t been updated from the inbound service so no clues there.
Can you email TrainSplit customer support email with your booking ref. I don't think your booking will be the issue, but we can at least check what the system is saying
 

Adam Williams

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I don't think your booking will be the issue
I've checked it, and it's not - or at least, it still recalls from the broker, so the seat resv that TrainSplit made is definitely not cancelled.

Would be interested to see the other E-Ticket and who retailed it, but appreciate that's probably not possible at this stage.
 

CaptainHaddock

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Are you sure you ( or the other couple) are looking at the reservations for the right leg of the journey? So many times I've witnessed instances like this where it eventually turns out one party's looking at their return reservations instead of their outwards (or vice versa).
 

trainophile

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I don’t really like to ask, the lady was a bit “uppity” if that’s a word, with showing me her tickets. She pushed past me to plonk herself in it!

The guard has just in the last few minutes made an announcement about there being an issue with the seat reservation system, so booked seats don’t apply and just sit anywhere.

As an aside, I found on boarding that we’d been given seats either side of the aisle, which I thought was a bit strange. I never thought to query it as the numbers are consecutive so just assumed it would be a pair. Pretty sure I didn’t use the seat selector as it doesn’t seem to work with more than one ticket currently?

The other couple have seats side by side, only the aisle one is a duplicate of one of ours. All very strange.
 

yorkie

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I don’t really like to ask, the lady was a bit “uppity” if that’s a word, with showing me her tickets. She pushed past me to plonk herself in it!
In that case, I suspect they were on the fiddle.

A reasonable person wouldn't act like that
The guard has just in the last few minutes made an announcement about there being an issue with the seat reservation system, so booked seats don’t apply and just sit anywhere.
In which case no-one has any rights to any seat, other than a first come first served basis (people shouldn't be pushing past people to achieve that!)
As an aside, I found on boarding that we’d been given seats either side of the aisle, which I thought was a bit strange. I never thought to query it as the numbers are consecutive so just assumed it would be a pair. Pretty sure I didn’t use the seat selector as it doesn’t seem to work with more than one ticket currently?
Correct; you'd need to add each ticket separately at present to use the seat selector.

You can check allocations using the seat diagrams on the TPE site.
The other couple have seats side by side, only the aisle one is a duplicate of one of ours. All very strange.
They may have cancelled their tickets and rebooked and then changed their mind.

It's also worth checking the date.

I've known people try to claim seats who eith t booked for the wrong train, or had the wrong coach or were on the wrong train (e.g. a delayed train turned up at the time theirs was due).

I've also had instances of where a train was removed and then reinstated from the timetable, and the original reservations were removed but customers had the confirmation as evidence of them; this did once happen to me on LNER (original booking was extended horizon) but a problem was averted because I realised and rebooked the reservation on the LNER site.

An actual duplicate is incredibly rare.
 

sciisfun

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This is often either a case of fraud or miscommunication. It is exceptionally rare for seats to be double booked.

Scenario 1 is that the customer buys the e-ticket, gets the PDF/Google/Apple Wallet ticket and then fraudulently cancels and refunds - but presents the original tickets. This is a huge issue on Transpennine Express because of the lack of scanning.

Scenario 2 is that when the customer purchased the tickets (usually a while ago) the service they booked was actually cancelled or amended by TPE afterwards, normally due to engineering works or operational matters, and if it was reinstated or put back on sale, all sorts of issues can occur, depending on what messaging the customer has seen.

Or (very unlikely) Scenario 3: The 2 seats were booked at the same time and the booking system hadn't refreshed in time.
or the even more unlikely scenario 4 (which happened to me) buy tickets, get billed twice, get a refund on one set, realise a few days before travel that refunding one set put the seats back into the pool. thankfully no one else had booked them
 

Adam Williams

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Correct; you'd need to add each ticket separately at present to use the seat selector.

@OscarH is correct, it will work fine again on the RailUK Forums sites. Eventually it will work fine everywhere, but it's not really a technical problem holding this back.

Changing two seats on a Pendolino service, on tickets-beta.railforums.co.uk
 
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trainophile

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Are you sure you ( or the other couple) are looking at the reservations for the right leg of the journey? So many times I've witnessed instances like this where it eventually turns out one party's looking at their return reservations instead of their outwards (or vice versa).

Yep pretty sure. It was a quick flash of her phone screen but I saw Haymarket.
 

Tazi Hupefi

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You really can't underestimate the extent of abuse / fraud which occurs - even from people who appear to be very genuine and well-to-do. Given the behaviour you describe, I think I will narrow down my original hypothesis to fraud or some other irregularity.

Something bizarre also happens between London and Milton Keynes on Avanti - you get commuters with perfectly valid standard class season tickets etc. claiming to have reserved an "available" seat in Standard Premium, to the point of being fairly aggressive at turfing people out of seats - only for the Train Manager to come along and need to sell them an upgrade, so clearly haven't reserved or paid in advance at all (and the reservation system is showing it being as available correctly). This is a known phenomenon, it's not just one or two wayward passengers. I do wonder where these very niche and unusual ideas / sense of entitlement come from and how they become mainstream.
 

D1024

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Interestingly, when I booked a journey from Edinburgh to Carlisle a few weeks ago (on Transpennine website) it didn't give me any allocated seat at all - just a message saying "You're booked on this train and can sit in any vacant seat for your class of travel". I've just done a dummy booking for later this week on same route and it returns the exact same message - no seat allocated, just effectively a counted place reservation. I did a little digging at the time of original booking and i'm sure there was a mention on this forum that TP aren't doing allocated seat reservations on their West Coast services to Glasgow/Edinburgh (can't find that thread at the moment though!)
 

trainophile

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Oh well, one of life’s mysteries. I’m puzzled myself now why I booked to Oxford Road when we’re going to Southport. The TPE was running late and would have only given us a minute at MCO, probably could have just made it but decided to bail at Bolton instead, where we picked up the ex-MCO train that we should have been on.

I must have had a daft half hour when booking, as I can’t believe Trainsplit would have routed me into MCO and back out again, unless of course it worked out cheaper, which wouldn’t surprise me.
 

yorkie

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Interestingly, when I booked a journey from Edinburgh to Carlisle a few weeks ago (on Transpennine website) it didn't give me any allocated seat at all - just a message saying "You're booked on this train and can sit in any vacant seat for your class of travel". I've just done a dummy booking for later this week on same route and it returns the exact same message - no seat allocated, just effectively a counted place reservation. I did a little digging at the time of original booking and i'm sure there was a mention on this forum that TP aren't doing allocated seat reservations on their West Coast services to Glasgow/Edinburgh (can't find that thread at the moment though!)
This is common on TPE.
Oh well, one of life’s mysteries. I’m puzzled myself now why I booked to Oxford Road when we’re going to Southport. The TPE was running late and would have only given us a minute at MCO, probably could have just made it but decided to bail at Bolton instead, where we picked up the ex-MCO train that we should have been on.

I must have had a daft half hour when booking, as I can’t believe Trainsplit would have routed me into MCO and back out again, unless of course it worked out cheaper, which wouldn’t surprise me.
If it was booked as a through journey, the itinerary would have been absolutely valid at the time of booking.

Trains cancelled and occasionally do get retimed, which can break valid connections, but provided you had a valid itinerary at the time of booking, you are covered in the event of a missed connection.

This is one of the reasons why I advise booking through journeys wherever possible; failing that, adding each ticket to the basket and making it one transaction is the next preference.
 

trainophile

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I realised if we missed the connection we could get the next one but it would have meant waiting an hour, and missing the last bus up to the flat!

Worked out well boarding at Bolton, no ticket checks yet anyway.
 
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...I'm sure there was a mention on this forum that TP aren't doing allocated seat reservations on their West Coast services to Glasgow/Edinburgh (can't find that thread at the moment though!)

I was wondering about that on TPE Manchester-Edinburgh this afternoon. I had an advance ticket but no specific seat either with the original booking in standard or in first after a Seatfrog upgrade. But the overhead displays were showing some reservations, at least in first, and people were boarding with those reservations. And I'm sure I've had a specific reserved seat on that route in the recent past.
 

Tugzrule

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Duplication has been common for a while with TPE, it was always assumed that one party had used Trainline and the other a TOC/other booking site. Particularly on Anglo Scottish services it’s been an issue hence why TPE tickets booked for the whole of this month have had no reservations showing

Should all be back ok next month - reservations currently apply to services in October having booked tickets the other day
 

OscarH

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Duplication has been common for a while with TPE, it was always assumed that one party had used Trainline and the other a TOC/other booking site. Particularly on Anglo Scottish services it’s been an issue hence why TPE tickets booked for the whole of this month have had no reservations showing

Should all be back ok next month - reservations currently apply to services in October having booked tickets the other day
Any implication that it comes down to the retailer used is going to be absolute nonsense, it's just the favourite scapegoat. No retailer is running the reservation system.
 

Tugzrule

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Scapegoat or not it was quite a widespread issue during August and this month which is why some seats still show with reservations (If booked several weeks ago) compared to those in the last 5-6 weeks when the reservations were blocked
 

Bungle965

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TPE have had major issues with the reservation system recently, as I understand it they have (on advice of those running the reservation system I have to add!) switched something on which has yet to be configured for the UK Railway System for re accommodating conflicted bookings.
This has lead to the considerable number of double bookings that has now been seen.
 
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Adam Williams

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That sounds like a familiar problem, the way the reservation system deals with so-called "conflicted" bookings has led to problems in the past with availability being mis-reported. I do think Sqills expect operators to be actively managing booking conflicts though and staying on top of them, and so if this hasn't been happening, I wonder if that's part of the problem.

You shouldn't get conflicts and passengers that need re-accommodating unless you're messing with the stock/"equipment" running a service though, I thought. So there must be another root cause that's triggered all of this.

Very interesting to hear about, though (and frustrating that this forum is the only place where it appears to have been communicated).
 
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I was wondering about that on TPE Manchester-Edinburgh this afternoon. I had an advance ticket but no specific seat either with the original booking in standard or in first after a Seatfrog upgrade. But the overhead displays were showing some reservations, at least in first, and people were boarding with those reservations. And I'm sure I've had a specific reserved seat on that route in the recent past.
Same for me on an Edinburgh to Newcastle return earlier this week. Ticket said to sit in any vacant seat. Seatfrog proved quite good value both ways!
 
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