Early days of the Class 455s

[AY1975]

There have been plenty of threads recently on current Class 455 operations and withdrawals, but I can't find one on their early days.

The Wikipedia entry on the 455s says the phase 1 units (the 455/8s) were all initially allocated to Wimbledon depot when they entered service in 1983, and worked both South Western and Central Division services, then in 1986 the Central Division 455/8s were transferred to Selhurst.

I thought the 455/8s were all initially allocated to the South Western Division, and only started to operate Central Division services from about 1985 onwards. I had presumed that the introduction of the 455/7s and 455/9s enabled a number of 455/8s to be cascaded onto the Central Division.

It would also seem a bit odd that the phase 2 units (the 455/7s) were given a lower numbering series than the phase 1 units, the 455/8s.

 

[norbitonflyer]

The 455/8s were indeed all initially allocated to the South Western. As for why the phsae 1 units were given higher numbers than the phase 2 ones, I would surmise it was because the 57xx series was still in use by 2EPBs, which were only later renumbered into the 62xx series. Indeed, there was a short period in 1984-85 when there were 455/7s and 416/2s bearing the same 4-digit numbers (although their official six digit mumbers were different).

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Long time ago now, and although being there in '83 when they came in, the mists of time do cloud one's memory, but the 455/8's were all Wimbledon based through to '85 at least, and the early batch, 5801-35 ish, wouldn't have been released to go to Selhurst until replacements (455/7's) were available. These were still being delivered during '85 I think. Can't remember the timetable detail of those years now, but the reference to 'Central' division may be referring to SW services that may have reached Dorking/Horsham, that sort of area?

 

[Snow1964]

I have a vague recollection that the 455s were regulars on the Tooting - Wimbledon -Sutton route from about 1985 to 1987 or 1988 when new 319s took over

I am sure they didn't operate on Central section in 1983, my memory is hazy but it was either late 1984 or 1985 when some moved over, by which time SW section had at least 50 units

There was a period around 1984 when it was almost for every one new 455 entering service, one 508 was transferred away.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Correct - all the 455s started life at Wimbledon; transfers to Selhurst of 455 801 to 455 846 took place in three or four batches as the newer builds of 455 were delivered to Wimbledon.

It makes sense that the 508s were transferred away on a one for one basis for a while because, of course, they lost the inner trailer to the 455/7 fleet.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Correct - all the 455s started life at Wimbledon; transfers to Selhurst of 455 801 to 455 846 took place in three or four batches as the newer builds of 455 were delivered to Wimbledon.

It makes sense that the 508s were transferred away on a one for one basis for a while because, of course, they lost the inner trailer to the 455/7 fleet.

I don't know how much work was needed to convert the trailers, but if it was at all significant you would have to start removing 508s some time before the first 455/7 was ready. My recollection is that 508s were already quite rare when the first 455/7 appeared.

 

[Snow1964]

I don't know how much work was needed to convert the trailers, but if it was at all significant you would have to start removing 508s some time before the first 455/7 was ready. My recollection is that 508s were already quite rare when the first 455/7 appeared.

Yes that was my recollection too, which is why I said thought the approx 1 new 455 for 1 508 started after about 50 units, so was overlap of 24 units before 455/7 started

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I don't know how much work was needed to convert the trailers, but if it was at all significant you would have to start removing 508s some time before the first 455/7 was ready. My recollection is that 508s were already quite rare when the first 455/7 appeared.

Yes, the 508s vanished when some of the 455/8s entered service.

The trailers needed quite a bit of work to make the suitable for insertion into the 455/7s; they didn't simply swap them out from one unit into the new unit. The increased end load requirements for the 455s when taking into account the different body profile of the 508 trailers took up the bulk of the work - they had reinforcement added close to to the four corners, full length of the bodyshell, in line with the four corners of the 455 bodyshell.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

IIRC there was a bit of an issue with the heating (winter months) on some units, when the 508 trailer would either be colder or hotter than the other three cars. Can't remember now if the fault was ever found/rectified, it is just a vague memory from a discussion/meeting had during the early days of their operation as hybrid units.
May have to make the effort to ride one in the next few months, if we get any cold weather.

 

[nw1]

The earliest I observed Central Division suburban services was at Clapham Junction on New Year's Eve 1985. There were some 455s present on the Central Division by then, but can't really comment on anything earlier than that.

This would accord with observations above.

In 1986 there were four suburban routes serving East Croydon off peak: Charing Cross-Caterham; Victoria-Tattenham (via the direct route, I think, alternate trains terminating at Smitham); Holborn-Sanderstead (can't remember the route) and London Bridge-East Croydon via Crystal Palace. The first three were half-hourly while the latter was hourly. The first two were primarily 455s off-peak, joined by EPBs in the peak; the third was a mix while the last was pure EPB.

 

[JonathanH]

Correct - all the 455s started life at Wimbledon; transfers to Selhurst of 455 801 to 455 846 took place in three or four batches as the newer builds of 455 were delivered to Wimbledon.

The Selhurst allocation wasn't always 46 units, they appear to have started with 35, increasing to 37 by 1991, then 46 by 1993, with the 456s to see off the residual EPB use.

 

[nw1]

The Selhurst allocation wasn't always 46 units, they appear to have started with 35, increasing to 37 by 1991, then 46 by 1993, with the 456s to see off the residual EPB use.

Presumably the SWD just lost 9 455s without replacement between 1991 and 1993, in that case? Recession-inspired cutbacks, I guess - I do remember the 1991 timetable was one of cuts in the peak on the mainlines, certainly, though not so sure about the suburban routes.

I also remember the percentage of Selhurst services operated by 455s remained about the same between 1986 and 1988, suggesting the original allocation of 35 was stable for a while. If I remember right there were slightly less (and thus slightly more EPBs) in 1985.

 

[AY1975]

I have a vague recollection that the 455s were regulars on the Tooting - Wimbledon -Sutton route from about 1985 to 1987 or 1988 when new 319s took over

As I recall they were regulars on the St Helier Loop from when the first 455s were transferred to the Central Division in about 1985 until Thameslink largely took over the route from Southern. With the start of Thameslink services there was some through running from the Thameslink route onto the St Helier line but mainly in peak hours, then I think for a time in about the late 2000s and early 2010s the St Helier line was served mainly by Thameslink but also by the odd peak hour Southern service to/from London Bridge, many of which were still 455s.

319s also worked some suburban services out of London Bridge and Victoria in their early days which they shared with EPBs and 455s.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The Selhurst allocation wasn't always 46 units, they appear to have started with 35, increasing to 37 by 1991, then 46 by 1993, with the 456s to see off the residual EPB use.

I'm not sure it was as many as 35 in the first move across?

 

[JonathanH]

I'm not sure it was as many as 35 in the first move across?

No, I guess not. I was commenting on the position by 1987 by which time the 455/9s had all arrived.

 

[AY1975]

The 455/8s were indeed all initially allocated to the South Western. As for why the phase 1 units were given higher numbers than the phase 2 ones, I would surmise it was because the 57xx series was still in use by 2EPBs, which were only later renumbered into the 62xx series. Indeed, there was a short period in 1984-85 when there were 455/7s and 416/2s bearing the same 4-digit numbers (although their official six digit mumbers were different).

Yes, and apart from the now withdrawn Southern 455s, which carried their full six digit numbers after refurbishment, AFAIK the 455s have only ever carried their shorter four digit numbers (as did the 458s when new and the 442s until their transfer to Southern). I presume this was in line with traditional Southern Region practice, and presumably SWT chose to carry on with this practice but Southern did not after its 455s were refurbished.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

No, I guess not. I was commenting on the position by 1987 by which time the 455/9s had all arrived.

I've just had a look at my old Combined Volumes, and it's rather more complex than any of us remembered...!!

The 1985 book lists the entire 455/8 fleet as being at Wimbledon.

The 1986 book has the first 27 at Selhurst, so the first transfers across were made during 1985.

The 1987 book has the first 35 at Selhurst.

The 1988 book has the first 37 at Selhurst.

In the 1989 book it's back to the first 35 being at Selhurst.

In the 1990 book, the first 36 are at Selhurst.

In the 1991 book, the first 40 are at Selhurst.

For the 1992 book, we are back down to the first 37 at Selhurst...

From the 1993 book onwards, Selhurst had the full complement of the first 46.

 

[nw1]

I've just had a look at my old Combined Volumes, and it's rather more complex than any of us remembered...!!

The 1985 book lists the entire 455/8 fleet as being at Wimbledon.

The 1986 book has the first 27 at Selhurst, so the first transfers across were made during 1985.

The 1987 book has the first 35 at Selhurst.

The 1988 book has the first 37 at Selhurst.

In the 1989 book it's back to the first 35 being at Selhurst.

In the 1990 book, the first 36 are at Selhurst.

In the 1991 book, the first 40 are at Selhurst.

For the 1992 book, we are back down to the first 37 at Selhurst...

From the 1993 book onwards, Selhurst had the full complement of the first 46.

What is interesting is how the South Western suburban network managed from 1993 onwards, having lost 9 455s. For the first year or two the recession would have resulted in reduced demand, but by 1997 an enhanced timetable was running.

 

[Helvellyn]

What is interesting is how the South Western suburban network managed from 1993 onwards, having lost 9 455s. For the first year or two the recession would have resulted in reduced demand, but by 1997 an enhanced timetable was running.

Backfilled with extra slam door stock (largely CEPs) wasn't it? Followed by the 458 order. So not directly suburban stock.

After the Desiro order the plan was to have 32 5-car 450/2 units for the Windsor Side suburban services and concentrate the 455s on the Mainline Suburban services. Of course the SRA scrapped the 450/2 fleet, SWT eventually ended up with an extra 27 450/0 units, then converted 28 (of the now 127 fleet) for the Windsor Side,with the refurbished 455s still on the Mainline.

Weren't the 456s actually originally ordered for the South Western Division before going to South Central? I know the scrapping of the DOO plans on the South Western were part of the reason for that but I wonder if they had stayed whether even more 455s would have gone to Selhurst?

 

[AY1975]

Backfilled with extra slam door stock (largely CEPs) wasn't it? Followed by the 458 order. So not directly suburban stock.

I guess that might explain why slam door units (though mostly VEPs as I recall) often turned up vice 455 on South West Trains suburban routes, especially Windsor & Eton Riverside, in their last few years of service.

Weren't the 456s actually originally ordered for the South Western Division before going to South Central?

Yes, they were. Apart from the decision to scrap plans for Driver Only Operation on the SWD, AIUI another reason for diverting them to the Central Division was to enable the latter to dispense with its remaining EPBs (many of which then went to the South Eastern Division for their last few years before withdrawal).

 

[nw1]

I guess that might explain why slam door units (though mostly VEPs as I recall) often turned up vice 455 on South West Trains suburban routes, especially Windsor & Eton Riverside, in their last few years of service.

I have the CWN for 2004 and there were a few booked VEP diagrams on routes which would normally be 455s. Not sure whether this was the case in the years preceding that.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

I have the CWN for 2004 and there were a few booked VEP diagrams on routes which would normally be 455s.

It shouldn't be forgotten that whilst the base plan CWN was the 'bible' as such, during times of stock cascades, be it incoming 508/outgoing SUB's, incoming Desiro/outgoing 400 stock (what ever), parts of the base plan stock diagrams were re-written for months on end in relation to what was actually planned/diagrammed, but those STP amendments (the reality of that which some will remember from their travels), being of a temporary nature, are likely as good as non existent these days in the 'documents saved for posterity' category.
During the last days of the REP's we were issuing numerous amendments, often as coloured temporary notices (in the case I remember - a 'pink' notice) that replaced the base plan for several weeks/months, before it was replaced by another temporary notice. The colour was not someone's choice as such, but just based on the supplies of coloured paper available at the time - these notices had to be distributed to all and sundry in hard copy format, no computers to do same back then.
I still have the odd example of these somewhere, only kept as once date expired and being single sided, office copies were kept as a supply of scrap paper. In true SR fashion nothing went to waste...

 

[nw1]

It shouldn't be forgotten that whilst the base plan CWN was the 'bible' as such, during times of stock cascades, be it incoming 508/outgoing SUB's, incoming Desiro/outgoing 400 stock (what ever), parts of the base plan stock diagrams were re-written for months on end in relation to what was actually planned/diagrammed, but those STP amendments (the reality of that which some will remember from their travels), being of a temporary nature, are likely as good as non existent these days in the 'documents saved for posterity' category.
During the last days of the REP's we were issuing numerous amendments, often as coloured temporary notices (in the case I remember - a 'pink' notice) that replaced the base plan for several weeks/months, before it was replaced by another temporary notice. The colour was not someone's choice as such, but just based on the supplies of coloured paper available at the time - these notices had to be distributed to all and sundry in hard copy format, no computers to do same back then.
I still have the odd example of these somewhere, only kept as once date expired and being single sided, office copies were kept as a supply of scrap paper. In true SR fashion nothing went to waste...

The 2004 CWNs I have (from the former UK Modern EMU groups.io group) seemed to be quite temporary in nature, with a Jan-Mar edition then (I think) a Mar-May edition.

One possible example of such amendments relates to an inconsistency in those CWNs compared to what I swear I remember. I'm 90% sure the 2130-odd Portsmouth to Southampton stopper throughout early-mid 2004 was a VEP, however it's shown as a CIG in the CWNs. (I remember a specific incident when I left my phone on this service in late April 2004, I'm sure it was a VEP, and I'm sure the VEP was the norm; I also remember it had been a CIG a year or two earlier before switching to a VEP).

You mention the REP switchover era. There are two things I've always wondered about in this period, I realise they're a bit OT for the thread but not sure if you could answer them:

1. In the 1989 timetable, a few '93' stoppers appeared to be 73+TC regularly. Was this booked in the main CWN or were they temporary amendments? Did they stay on '93's or did they interwork with anything else (I recall in 1991, the '93's typically interworked with Altons but the TCs had all gone by then).
2. In 1990, on Solent electrification, did the '80' Waterloo-Portsmouth via Eastleigh interwork with the '87's to Southampton and Poole? They didn't in 1991 (they were Greyhound CIGs that year, some of which attached to or detached from '81's at PH) but I'm sure in 1990 the '80's were a mix of CIGs and VEPs, suggesting they might have interworked with the Solent stoppers.

No worries if you don't know but thought I'd try! I'd love to get hold of late 80s and 90s CWNs but sadly I don't think there are any obvious sources...

 

[Helvellyn]

The 2004 CWNs I have (from the former UK Modern EMU groups.io group) seemed to be quite temporary in nature, with a Jan-Mar edition then (I think) a Mar-May edition.

One possible example of such amendments relates to an inconsistency in those CWNs compared to what I swear I remember. I'm 90% sure the 2130-odd Portsmouth to Southampton stopper throughout early-mid 2004 was a VEP, however it's shown as a CIG in the CWNs. (I remember a specific incident when I left my phone on this service in late April 2004, I'm sure it was a VEP, and I'm sure the VEP was the norm; I also remember it had been a CIG a year or two earlier before switching to a VEP).

You mention the REP switchover era. There are two things I've always wondered about in this period, I realise they're a bit OT for the thread but not sure if you could answer them:

1. In the 1989 timetable, a few '93' stoppers appeared to be 73+TC regularly. Was this booked in the main CWN or were they temporary amendments? Did they stay on '93's or did they interwork with anything else (I recall in 1991, the '93's typically interworked with Altons but the TCs had all gone by then).
2. In 1990, on Solent electrification, did the '80' Waterloo-Portsmouth via Eastleigh interwork with the '87's to Southampton and Poole? They didn't in 1991 (they were Greyhound CIGs that year, some of which attached to or detached from '81's at PH) but I'm sure in 1990 the '80's were a mix of CIGs and VEPs, suggesting they might have interworked with the Solent stoppers.

No worries if you don't know but thought I'd try! I'd love to get hold of late 80s and 90s CWNs but sadly I don't think there are any obvious sources...

December 2004 was when SWT recast the whole timetable after the 444/450 introduction - the first since Bournemouth Line electrification in 1967. It concentrated the 442s on the Weymouth route and 458s on the Reading route, with 455s largely on the main suburban side.

So in the run up to that you'll have had the phase out of all the slam door stock as crew training proceeded at pace in the run up to the recast, plus it was probably a case of the best slammers being kept until the end so a lot more varied diagramming as the number of slammer services reduced.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

1. In the 1989 timetable, a few '93' stoppers appeared to be 73+TC regularly. Was this booked in the main CWN or were they temporary amendments? Did they stay on '93's or did they interwork with anything else (I recall in 1991, the '93's typically interworked with Altons but the TCs had all gone by then).
2. In 1990, on Solent electrification, did the '80' Waterloo-Portsmouth via Eastleigh interwork with the '87's to Southampton and Poole? They didn't in 1991 (they were Greyhound CIGs that year, some of which attached to or detached from '81's at PH) but I'm sure in 1990 the '80's were a mix of CIGs and VEPs, suggesting they might have interworked with the Solent stoppers.

1. Afraid I can't remember this far down the line. I suspect the ED + TC scenario would have been a temporary thing (but I could be wrong?), even if that was for more than a few weeks. If it was due to last longer than eight weeks, it may have been issued as a PA (perm alteration) which normally relates to the first step of a change becoming perm at the next major TT change, a driving (no pun intended) factor in such decisions being the issuing of associated changes to crew diagrams.
2. Again, time, memory (hazy/lack of), so apologies. The interworking you mention I presume relates to the PH end? If you are able to supply the arrival/departure times of the 80s & 87's at the Harbour, and perhaps the other main players (SW trains) for a/any given 'standard' (off peak) hour, I may be able to take an educated guess? Pompey Harbour could a real pig to platform (in an ideal manner) I can personally say, although many years ago there was a post (job) based in the offices at the low level who's occupant undertook this work, and forwarded same to HQ planning. Worked with (via the dog and bone) two of the chaps who occupied same in my time, and very knowledgeable they were.

PS: as this is veering OT, perhaps PM me about Pompey Harbour if you wish?

 

[nw1]

December 2004 was when SWT recast the whole timetable after the 444/450 introduction - the first since Bournemouth Line electrification in 1967. It concentrated the 442s on the Weymouth route and 458s on the Reading route, with 455s largely on the main suburban side.

Is that actually true? There seemed to be a fairly major recast in 1999, for example, and smaller but still significant revisions in 1986, 1989 and through the 90s.

 

[JonathanH]

Is that actually true? There seemed to be a fairly major recast in 1999, for example, and smaller but still significant revisions in 1986, 1989 and through the 90s.

Yes, December 2004 was portrayed as the first full recast since 1967.

It brought fairly significant changes, whereas previous ones had been incremental.

 

[nw1]

Yes, December 2004 was portrayed as the first full recast since 1967.

It brought fairly significant changes, whereas previous ones had been incremental.

Maybe, though 1999 to me still looked like a full recast of the main line (the others, admittedly, were incremental) with quite a radical, for the time, frequency increase on both the SWML and the Direct, and a complete change of departure times on many routes, especially the Direct. Perhaps the difference from 2004 was that other parts of the network were not similarly recast in 1999?

To illustrate what I mean, in 1997 we had, on the fast lines:

xx00, xx20, xx40 Portsmouth Direct
xx10, xx30, xx50 SWML fasts and semi-fasts
xx03, xx33 Alton or Farnham
xx12, xx42 Basingstoke or Portsmouth via Eastleigh
xx24, xx54 Haslemere stopper, or Guildford
xx35 Salisbury / Exeter line

In 1999 we had:

xx08, xx23, xx38, xx53 Portsmouth Direct
xx00, xx15, xx30, xx45 SWML fasts and semi-fasts
xx20, xx50 Alton or Farnham
xx10, xx40 Basingstoke or Portsmouth via Eastleigh
xx26, xx56 Guildford stopper
xx35 Salisbury / Exeter line; xx03 path also used from mid-afternoon and all day from around 2001-ish (?)

The last three were much the same but the first three fairly radically revised.

 

[JonathanH]

Perhaps the difference from 2004 was that other parts of the network were not similarly recast in 1999?

The big thing about 2004 was pairing movements at Woking off the Portsmouth Line, and increasing dwell times to reflect the use of Desiros.

The timetable was described as having been written around the junction at Woking then working outwards from there.

 

[nw1]

The big thing about 2004 was pairing movements at Woking off the Portsmouth Line,

Ah ok, fair enough, so this was presumably not a consideration in other big changes such as 1999. The '99 change seemed to be purely to increase frequency rather than trying to optimise movements.

and increasing dwell times to reflect the use of Desiros.

The timetable was described as having been written around the junction at Woking then working outwards from there.