East Croydon and Clapham Junction Pick Up only on Reigate Services?

[WizCastro197]

I just wanted to see what people thought about this idea:


I frequently travel on Victoria-Reigate Services and I often find myself rather dismayed at the amount of people who like to cram these 4 coachers just to Reach Clapham and or East Croydon. It has become rather irritating for Redhill line passengers (who need these services to reach where they live) to be denied space on a train as a direct result of those who want to reach ECR or CLJ when there are plenty of others that can reach such destinations with a lot more coaches.


I have been thinking how to rectify such situation in the cheapest way possible, so no platform or stock changes, and all I can think is to implement an SWR like restriction where in this circumstance, Victoria departure boards do not show Reigate trains as stopping at Clapham or East Croydon in order to ensure that passengers for Purley Merstham, Coulsdon South, Redhill, Reigate all can board the service and perhaps get a seat. The train should still stop at both stations but with a pickup only restriction.


I hope those who live on the Redhill Section of the Brighton Mainline can understand what I am talking about. I look forward to hearing people's suggestions about this matter.

 

[JonathanH]

In theory passengers arriving at Victoria should gravitate to the Arun Valley service which leaves only a few minutes before the Reigate train does. I'm not sure it really is Clapham Junction and East Croydon passengers who crowd these out, it is more that demand from the stations beyond East Croydon is slightly more than fits on a 4-car unit.

There is nothing to stop you using a preceding service and change at East Croydon if you need more space. In some cases it is quicker to change at East Croydon in any case, although admittedly not for Reigate.

 

[zwk500]

I think this is worth a trial, given the 4 car restrictions, but don't expect too much - people will quickly learn that these services do stop at those stations and board regardless.
Medium term extension to 8 or 12 cars at Reigate would be the better option.

 

[JonathanH]

I'm not sure what you do in the London bound direction though. Passengers at East Croydon simply aren't used to letting a train go and waiting five minutes for the next train no matter how crowded the first service is.

Whilst I appreciate that passengers from Reigate have a seat, it still isn't ideal to be on a crowded service.

While changing the layout at Reigate unlocks longer trains, a lower cost option in the current circumstances is just to admit defeat and cancel the Reigate service altogether (or perhaps terminate it at East Croydon from the south) to make the 4-car issue go away. 4tph Thameslink services would easily handle off peak loads on the Redhill corridor.

 

[zwk500]

I'm not sure what you do in the London bound direction though. Passengers at East Croydon simply aren't used to letting a train go and waiting five minutes for the next train no matter how crowded the first service is.

Whilst I appreciate that passengers from Reigate have a seat, it still isn't ideal to be on a crowded service.

Isn't ideal but even if you put them to set down only people would board.

While changing the layout at Reigate unlocks longer trains, a lower cost option in the current circumstances is just to admit defeat and cancel the Reigate service altogether (or perhaps terminate it at East Croydon from the south) to make the 4-car issue go away. 4tph Thameslink services would easily handle off peak loads on the Redhill corridor.

Isn't this heresy?

 

[Rescars]

I think this is worth a trial, given the 4 car restrictions, but don't expect too much - people will quickly learn that these services do stop at those stations and board regardless.
Medium term extension to 8 or 12 cars at Reigate would be the better option.

It does seem an attractive low-cost option which could relieve at least some of the pressure on southbound services. If the northbound trains are very busy by the time they reach ECR so be it. The good folk of Reigate and intermediate stations will have their seats and, if there is no more room for the ECR crowds, there will almost certainly be another (longer) train arriving within a few minutes.

More cars to Reigate would obviously be better, but that sounds expensive, especially in the current climate.

 

[WizCastro197]

I'm not sure what you do in the London bound direction though. Passengers at East Croydon simply aren't used to letting a train go and waiting five minutes for the next train no matter how crowded the first service is.

Whilst I appreciate that passengers from Reigate have a seat, it still isn't ideal to be on a crowded service.

While changing the layout at Reigate unlocks longer trains, a lower cost option in the current circumstances is just to admit defeat and cancel the Reigate service altogether (or perhaps terminate it at East Croydon from the south) to make the 4-car issue go away. 4tph Thameslink services would easily handle off peak loads on the Redhill corridor.

Sorry I forgot to add that the restrictions wouldn't apply in the London Bound direction as at East Croydon the service becomes a standard fasts service.

 

[zwk500]

Sorry I forgot to add that the restrictions wouldn't apply in the London Bound direction as at East Croydon the service becomes a standard fasts service.

You can put whatever you like on the boards at Easy Croydon, if it says London Victoria on the front and is stood in platform 1 people will get on!

 

[JonathanH]

Isn't this heresy?

Almost certainly - two changes for Reigate to Clapham Junction or London Victoria wouldn't go down well.

You can put whatever you like on the boards at Easy Croydon, if it says London Victoria on the front and is stood in platform 1 people will get on!

...and even when they run them from platform 4 it doesn't seem to put people off.

 

[Minstral25]

Reigate is a busy station (1.4m entry/exits pa before Covid) and needs a London service - vast majority of tickets bought from Reigate are for London destinations. (Albeit there is a large flow towards Reigate from Purley, Coulsdon South, Merstham and other stations for the College and several offices at Reigate).

Excluding restricting passengers onto trains, there are really 4 alternatives to solving the short train within London problem

1. New platform at Reigate capable of 12 car reversals - New Platform 3 is the normal suggestion but extending one platform and re-signalling would probably work too.
2. Extend third rail or AC to Guildford where a longer train can be turned. (Not Dorking as Deepdene is high on an embankment)
3. Split Reigate service with another along current route - Normally suggested Tonbridge or towards Gatwick/Horsham
4. Make Reigate a shuttle service from Redhill

1. In either form is not likely to happen with current monetary restrictions - Power and signalling upgrades too expensive
2. Equally unlikely for same reason - money
3. Probably Best option - stock is available from the peak services which sit in sidings rest of day
4. Will be very unpopular losing through services for current passengers (both from Reigate to London and college students) but will also highlight infrastructure problems for passengers at Redhill Station which is not suitable for masses changing trains due to layout of passenger side and lack of footbridge/underpass at northern end of station with 12 coach stock

So, taking 3 as best option how might this be implemented.

A) Turn 4/8 cars round at Redhill. Would take up platform 0 at Redhill all day and create some complex moves north of Redhill but very viable
B) Tonbridge - service is only hourly to Tonbridge so this would need to be doubled. Also currently uses 3 car units so would need swapping with 4-car. Problem is passenger numbers are so low (historically single figures continuing to London even in the peaks). Probably not a useful solution as only being done for longer trains after Purley
C) Extend to Gatwick, Three Bridges or Horsham.

To me C) is the most logical. It would be in my opinion an all-stations service to Horsham, replacing the Gatwick/Three Bridges to Horsham part of the Peterborough service. This would mean Horsham drops off the Thameslink network and lose direct service to London Bridge (which may be a bad thing), Crawley the other large station does too but Crawley and Three Bridges are in the same catchment area so perhaps not such a big issue as Three Bridges would keep trains to London Bridge. For Thameslink it means they can concentrate one driver's depot at Three Bridges (Instead of split with Horsham) and would be able to recover services better from the single destination - perhaps using two roads in the depot to turn trains allowing easy swaps too when necessary.

 

[30907]

Splitting at Redhill already happens in the peaks, so if there are offpeak trains that require >4 cars beyond ECR, then that would seem a solution (though it still comes with costs).

 

[WizCastro197]

Splitting at Redhill already happens in the peaks, so if there are offpeak trains that require >4 cars beyond ECR, then that would seem a solution (though it still comes with costs).

Where would the extra stock sit?

Gatwick airport sidings?


Redhill sidings have been unused for quite a while now but I doubt it’ll cost millions to bring it back into use.

 

[JonathanH]

Redhill sidings have been unused for quite a while now but I doubt it’ll cost millions to bring it back into use.

There is an electrified siding (actually the Up Tonbridge Goods Line) on the Tonbridge curve. A unit (or two) stables there overnight.
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:W80546/2022-10-06/detailed

 

[30907]

Where would the extra stock sit?

Wherever they do in the peak timetable.

But it depends a bit which trains have significant crowding South of ECR.

 

[zwk500]

Wherever they do in the peak timetable.

But it depends a bit which trains have significant crowding South of ECR.

It also requires an additional driver and increases the risk of delays trying to get portions from either side of Redhill Junction into the station in quick succession. This evening peak, there was a train for Reigate and Gatwick Airport, and an hour later it was for Reigate and Three Bridges. Doing that all day isn't going to be easy.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

You don't want splitting and joining at Redhill all day. You don't want it at all ideally as its incredibly unreliable.

The other option would be to just run the Tonbridge to Redhill service through to Reigate and then run the Victoria to Reigate services through to Gatwick Airport and extend them to 8 coaches accordingly. Would massively improve the service at Earlswood, Salford and Horley as well.

 

[JonathanH]

Would massively improve the service at Earlswood, Salford and Horley as well.

There is no guarantee that additional stops at those stations would be introduced, particularly if a Gatwick reversal could be scheduled within the current Reigate turnaround. Probably too tight though with 7 minute running time each way within the 23 minutes between current Redhill arrival and Redhill departure.

The other option would be to just run the Tonbridge to Redhill service through to Reigate and then run the Victoria to Reigate services through to Gatwick Airport and extend them to 8 coaches accordingly.

Could the Victoria train just run 8 coaches and terminate at Redhill? Seems lowest cost option, particularly if it were reduced to run hourly. Fewer traincrew, no extra units, no need to extend platforms.

 

[WizCastro197]

I do think the removal of the Reigate service overall is rather extreme considering Reigate will have a pretty poor service is this happens. As Previously mentioned the risk is that passengers will start to know which trains stop at Clapham and Croydon but then how does SWR manage to keep Clapham passengers off fast trains? Surely regular users know that most stop.

There is no guarantee that additional stops at those stations would be introduced, particularly if a Gatwick reversal could be scheduled within the current Reigate turnaround. Probably too tight though with 7 minute running time each way within the 23 minutes between current Redhill arrival and Redhill departure.


Could the Victoria train just run 8 coaches and terminate at Redhill? Seems lowest cost option, particularly if it were reduced to run hourly. Fewer traincrew, no extra units, no need to extend platforms.

Interesting idea. Removing one service from Victoria to Redhill may create extra passengers but the extra 4 coaches should settle that out. But It isn't like if one service was removed per hour, Redhill will suffer completely with its 5tph to London and beyond. But the main worry will be Reigate with no London service and large gaps in service between Redhill and Reigate if this service was removed.

 

[JonathanH]

then how does SWR manage to keep Clapham passengers off fast trains? Surely regular users know that most stop.

Victoria to Clapham Junction really isn't the issue. There are plenty of trains over that part of the route and plenty of passengers board at Clapham Junction going southbound.

There isn't any point in SWR passengers catching long distance trains that stop of Clapham Junction. For a start most don't stop there so it is a bit risky knowing which ones do, and there are frequent trains on the suburban side.

But the main worry will be Reigate with no London service and large gaps in service between Redhill and Reigate if this service was removed.

Reigate could still have three trains an hour to Redhill if the Tonbridge train could be extended, which is adequate.

(I recognise the passenger inconvenience but sometimes compromises have to be reached, even if not good for all passengers.)

 

[WizCastro197]

Victoria to Clapham Junction really isn't the issue. There are plenty of trains over that part of the route and plenty of passengers board at Clapham Junction going southbound.

There isn't any point in SWR passengers catching long distance trains that stop of Clapham Junction. For a start most don't stop there so it is a bit risky knowing which ones do, and there are frequent trains on the suburban side.

Yes since actually most suburbans reach Clapham quicker than Long distance trains eg. the Chessington South train I went on on Friday only takes 7 minutes from Waterloo to Clapham yet a Weymouth train takes 9-10.

Victoria to Clapham Junction really isn't the issue. There are plenty of trains over that part of the route and plenty of passengers board at Clapham Junction going southbound.

There isn't any point in SWR passengers catching long distance trains that stop of Clapham Junction. For a start most don't stop there so it is a bit risky knowing which ones do, and there are frequent trains on the suburban side.


Reigate could still have three trains an hour to Redhill if the Tonbridge train could be extended, which is adequate.

Oh Alright. Could 8 coach Redhill terminators possibly end up on 0, rather than 3? Considering only that and the GWR use that platform so I am sure there is time?

 

[JonathanH]

Oh Alright. Could 8 coach Redhill terminators possibly end up on 0, rather than 3? Considering only that and the GWR use that platform so I am sure there is time?

If the Victoria service ran hourly, it could run in the opposite side of the hour to the Reading to Redhill stopper and terminate in platform 0. The Gatwick service times wouldn't conflict as they can use platform 1.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

There is no guarantee that additional stops at those stations would be introduced, particularly if a Gatwick reversal could be scheduled within the current Reigate turnaround. Probably too tight though with 7 minute running time each way within the 23 minutes between current Redhill arrival and Redhill departure.


Could the Victoria train just run 8 coaches and terminate at Redhill? Seems lowest cost option, particularly if it were reduced to run hourly. Fewer traincrew, no extra units, no need to extend platforms.

Youd ad an additional unit most likely.

I wouldn't be terminating things from the North at Redhill. Will be a recipe for awful performance.

 

[WizCastro197]

Youd ad an additional unit most likely.

I wouldn't be terminating things from the North at Redhill. Will be a recipe for awful performance.

How does it add an extra unit?

If it ran hourly then the two 4 coaches would merge into one 8 coach. No extra stock required than already used.

 

[Minstral25]

You don't want splitting and joining at Redhill all day. You don't want it at all ideally as its incredibly unreliable.

The other option would be to just run the Tonbridge to Redhill service through to Reigate and then run the Victoria to Reigate services through to Gatwick Airport and extend them to 8 coaches accordingly. Would massively improve the service at Earlswood, Salford and Horley as well.

Agree on the Splitting which is why extending Reigate station is the best option but currently unlikely so perhaps we need to be pragmatic on that issue.

When through services all day were introduced at Reigate there was a significant jump in passenger numbers, this increased again when made half hourly. It would be a major blow to usage to attach to Tonbridge services.

Additionally, it will create problems at Redhill station, both from increased parking in the station area as many would not rely on the connections and passenger congestion at Redhill Station which is already bad due to antiquated inefficient subway & 12 car trains but with an additional say a million passengers a year from Reigate changing trains if current numbers are kept. (1.5 million entries and exits at Reigate mostly on the Victoria services)

There is no guarantee that additional stops at those stations would be introduced, particularly if a Gatwick reversal could be scheduled within the current Reigate turnaround. Probably too tight though with 7 minute running time each way within the 23 minutes between current Redhill arrival and Redhill departure.


Could the Victoria train just run 8 coaches and terminate at Redhill? Seems lowest cost option, particularly if it were reduced to run hourly. Fewer traincrew, no extra units, no need to extend platforms.

It would be expected considering unreliability of Peterborough services that calls are made, probably replacing Thameslink calls which would be pretty unpopular

Hourly just to Redhill. You may upset a huge number of people, at Reigate, Redhill, Merstham, Coulsdon South and Purley. I do think Thameslink is probably more important service at Redhill but if a quarter of the users at Redhill go to Victoria, halving their service is a very large number of disrupted journeys - not to mention at the other stations too. Reigate to Victoria is a well used service for passengers.

Reigate could still have three trains an hour to Redhill if the Tonbridge train could be extended, which is adequate.

(I recognise the passenger inconvenience but sometimes compromises have to be reached, even if not good for all passengers.)

Addressed above - simply Redhill station cannot cope with the additional passengers changing, it couldn't in early 2010's and passenger numbers are higher now plus trains using platforms are generally longer.

 

[cle]

The Reigate project seemed relatively well-formed, maybe just not funded - but would be of broader use. We should not have 4 car services out of Victoria through CJ and EC. So even if Reigate took on a Thameslink frequency (8 or 12 car) then a Victoria path to elsewhere could be longer.

Stitching the shuttles is maybe better than nothing on the face of it - but doesn't really add much.

 

[WizCastro197]

Agree on the Splitting which is why extending Reigate station is the best option but currently unlikely so perhaps we need to be pragmatic on that issue.

When through services all day were introduced at Reigate there was a significant jump in passenger numbers, this increased again when made half hourly. It would be a major blow to usage to attach to Tonbridge services.

Additionally, it will create problems at Redhill station, both from increased parking in the station area as many would not rely on the connections and passenger congestion at Redhill Station which is already bad due to antiquated inefficient subway & 12 car trains but with an additional say a million passengers a year from Reigate changing trains if current numbers are kept. (1.5 million entries and exits at Reigate mostly on the Victoria services)



It would be expected considering unreliability of Peterborough services that calls are made, probably replacing Thameslink calls which would be pretty unpopular

Hourly just to Redhill. You may upset a huge number of people, at Reigate, Redhill, Merstham, Coulsdon South and Purley. I do think Thameslink is probably more important service at Redhill but if a quarter of the users at Redhill go to Victoria, halving their service is a very large number of disrupted journeys - not to mention at the other stations too. Reigate to Victoria is a well used service for passengers.



Addressed above - simply Redhill station cannot cope with the additional passengers changing, it couldn't in early 2010's and passenger numbers are higher now plus trains using platforms are generally longer.

For the first time Thameslink usage ( from my personal observation from using redhill practically every week) is a lot higher in the peaks with platform 2 at 09:30 completely full with expecting Thameslink Passengers and my Victoria train practically deserted on Friday.


Thameslink is far more important than Southern Victoria. But it would still be wise to keep the service for those who’ve grown up with the only option of a Victoria service and is a habit to get on them.

 

[AzureOtsu]

What is the viability of terminating the Tonbridge 377/3 at Reigate instead of Redhill, and making a slow victoria to three bridges service that provides a guaranteed connection to Reigate?

 

[zwk500]

What is the viability of terminating the Tonbridge 377/3 at Reigate instead of Redhill, and making a slow victoria to three bridges service that provides a guaranteed connection to Reigate?

Very low to none at all. A guaranteed connection at Redhill won't survive even minor disruption.

 

[JonathanH]

Very low to none at all. A guaranteed connection at Redhill won't survive even minor disruption.

Yes, absolutely no Reigate trains are held at Redhill under any circumstance. Given they are on an unconflicted side of the station the policy is right time departure every time.

 

[Fenchurch SP]

Would the best solution not be for 8 car Reigate bound trains to drop 4 coaches in Platform 0 at Redhill and then rejoin on the return journey?